Embodying Your Vacations and Overcoming Body Image Anxiety
Welcome to the Satiated Podcast, where we explore physical and emotional hunger, satiation and healing your relationship with your food and body. I'm your host, Stephanie Mara Fox, your Somatic Nutritional Counselor.
Welcome to Week 2 of this body image summer series. An exploration I've chatted about with many people over the years is how to navigate vacations. Being around new environments, eating different foods, and taking pictures can be exhilarating and liberating to some and overwhelming, stressful, and scary to others. There can be fear about what you're eating, when you're eating, how much you're eating and how that is all going to affect your body's appearance. When taking pictures, you might experience harsh internal criticism about what you see. If your vacation includes wearing bathing suits or shorts or short sleeves and more of your body is showing, you might then be navigating fear, worry, anxiety, or frustration from more of your body being seen. While this may be how vacations have been so far, your embodiment and safety in vacations can change and increase. Your body will need lots and lots of support though to know that it is not in danger, that it is safe to be seen, and that no matter how your body changes throughout a vacation you are not in danger. I chat about food and body image resources for your vacations today with Dr. Rachel Evans.
Dr. Evans is a chartered psychologist, hypnotherapist and podcast host. She combines her lived experience of bulimia recovery with professional expertise and training to support one-to-one clients who feel obsessed with food, hate their body, and use increasingly extreme methods to try and control it. At the heart of her practice is a compassionate, individualized, and trauma-informed approach, focusing on the person rather than a label. She has been featured in leading publications such as Psychologies and appeared on BBC radio, sharing her expertise to challenge diet culture and break the stigma surrounding eating disorders. A sought-after speaker, she has delivered impactful workshops for large and small organizations and spoken at conferences and wellness festivals, inspiring audiences with her evidence-based insights and personal journey We explore food anxiety on vacations, body image concerns and social judgments while on a vacation, navigating diet culture and post holiday transition, and provide practical tips to try out on your next vacation.
As a reminder, my Befriending Your Body Image Challenges Workshop is on Wednesday, August 27th at 5:00 pm ET. This is a live two hour workshop where we are going to do a deep dive into a somatic perspective on body image recovery. I only teach this workshop live once a year. Last year, participants found my Somatic Eating® approach to body image recovery a total game changer to navigate body image concerns as body communication. You can sign up HERE.
Now, welcome Rachel! I am really excited to reconnect with you today. We were on the same summit together, and I just actually loved everything that you shared on the summit when we were in an interview together, and I was like, I have to have you on the podcast. And so I'm really excited to have you here. And for those who don't know you and your work, I would love for you to share a little bit about how you got into the work that you're doing today.
Rachel Evans 03:59
Yeah, so you know, I say I work with people with eating disorders. Actually, I don't diagnose anyone with anything, and we take more of the approach of, you know what's going on for you right now, like an anti pathology approach. But I am a psychologist. I got into this area through my own background. While I feel like I always wanted to be a psychologist, but I didn't have a specialist area in the UK, they make it seem like it's really hard to get into clinical psychology. So I didn't really try that. I did a master's in health psychology. Then I started getting more and more strict about what I was eating. Was like, the rise of wellness bloggers saying, like, have a kale smoothie. It's the healthiest thing. And like, eat your chia seeds for breakfast. And I was eating them even though I didn't like them. I convinced myself I like kale smoothies, which, on one hand, seems like innocuous enough. You're like, okay, you've had a chia seeds for breakfast. I was getting really anxious then if I was eating different foods, so it then turned into more like the term that people might know, like orthorexia. And with that, along came exercise. But then actually, I was cutting down more. Or more foods that I was allowed. So I allowed myself not I was allowed. Obviously, I was allowed anything, but I didn't allow it for myself. So I was never diagnosed with anorexia, but actually, when I learned more about it, like a lot of the things and the experiences that people were saying I was like, that was happening to me the amount of time I was thinking about food, the anxiety, like the physical effects of not eating enough. And I was living abroad at the time, and then I moved back home. And I do say I felt very depressed at that point, because I didn't have a lot going on in my life. I'd left my job working abroad and come back. Didn't really have a job, kind of a bit stuck on life direction at that point. So I did see a therapist for a while. I kind of joke it was to complain about my dad because I was living with my parents at the time, who were really lovely, but I was, you know, in my early 20s, and they were on my case because they could see I was really over exercising. I wasn't happy, I wasn't eating what I used to they were really worried about me, but, like, I did not see it. I was in denial. I am being healthy. You guys are not being healthy. And then when I started seeing the therapist, and I started, well, I call it binge eating, but I have been thinking more about this recently in terms of what people call, like, extreme hunger. Because I think the thing is, at the time, I didn't recognize, really, that I'd lost weight. And I was never, like, clinically underweight, but it was not a, you know, healthy weight for my body. So I thought, now I'm binge eating, but I probably actually was my body like, please just give us some, you know, nutrients and some calories. And so then my body changed quite quickly. I know we're going to be talking about body image today. So over the course of few months, like, I ended up being really bloated because I was binging at nighttime, like, literally at 3am like, in the middle of the night. Yeah, so I had that experience, and I feel like my therapist really didn't understand that. She was saying, like, oh, well, if you wake up, do some yoga. And I was like, I cannot. I just have to go to the kitchen. And even though I don't want to, and I, like, actually hate myself because I'm doing this, I just cannot, not. And then actually, things would shift quite a lot. I got more flexible, you know, things, things were starting to change. I left that therapist. I started a PhD in the psychology of eating. I was in denial, because, actually, I'd started making myself sick, like, throw up at that point after a binge, and that was happening. And then that got a lot worse in terms of, like, the amount of times it was happening, you know, the amount of days that it was happening, until it got to the point I was like, right, I need to do something about this. I cannot live like this anymore, like I think I was very in denial when it was manageable and not taking over my life. I was happy to go along with it. And then it just got that. I just felt like I couldn't deal with it. And then that's when I did have a few sessions of therapy, and then decided that wasn't really for me, but actually, then I could apply what I knew about psychology, because I had an undergrad in psychology, I'd done a health psychology masters, which was a lot about behavior change, but I just couldn't apply that to myself to begin with, because I was like, on this quest to find the perfect diet that will give me the perfect body and I won't feel out of control about food, and obsessed about food, thinking about every minute I thought that diet was going to give me that when actually it wasn't the case. And then I realized I actually hated doing a PhD. I did finish it, but, you know, the whole setup is not for me. I actually like talking to people, so I think that's when I was motivated to have my own practice, because I have that experience of what it's like when you feel absolutely compelled to go and do that behavior. And I just think, I'm not saying other therapists are judgmental, but I think sometimes when you're the client, it can come across as like, oh, they don't quite get this. So, you know, some people do prefer to have a therapist who has been through it as well. So that was not too, too short introduction to me, but that's where I am, I'm now.
Stephanie Mara 08:39
Yeah, I resonated with so many pieces of that, and it kind of reminded me of what I went through, of how quickly it kind of spins out like it starts with such a great intention of, you know, maybe I feel a little bit uncomfortable in my body and with my body image, and, oh, people are telling me it's healthy to drink a smoothie, and how quickly that starts to kind of spiral into cutting out foods and then being afraid of foods, and then it's shaping your experiences of being able to go out and enjoy food with other people. So I just really resonated with a lot of what you've been through, and I agree with you that, yeah, I have a lot of people who come to me as well, saying that they tried to work with a lot of other people, but I know in my master's degree, there was no class on working with people specifically around their relationship with food, like I had to go out and find those educational experiences to kind of specialize in that, because it's not really taught as just a basic thing for therapists of, hey, you know, your clients may struggle with food, and here are things that you might want to ask or explore with them. So I really hear a lot of overlaps in what I've experienced as well.
Rachel Evans 09:53
Yeah, I think especially because my master's with health psychology and in terms of health promotion, that's kind of like I was thinking how can we get people to eat less sugar? How can we get people to eat less salt? Because that's good for you, but it's not taking into account, like, okay, maybe a population level, people do, you know, have a bit too much, but within that general average, some people are eating a lot. Some people aren't eating enough. And I think people fall into that bracket when, actually maybe they are eating, when I say healthy for them, that's nourishing their body enough, and, you know, giving them the energy they need to do, you know, the activities that they're doing. You know, they they don't need all this health advice. But I feel like I was there thinking I'm doing a good thing, trying to give this to everyone. And some people don't even want to change their behavior. That's for them to decide. You know, not, not me trying to do my health promotion. So, yeah.
Stephanie Mara 10:41
Yeah, I know that on my path, one of the things, especially when we're talking about, like, orthorexia was eating out was so anxiety provoking, especially when there was a lot of focus on, like, I don't know what's in this, or I don't know what ingredients are in this, you know, I think that with kind of this theme of this month of body image, I feel like for a lot of those that I work with and for myself as well, there's kind of this core of body image that is sometimes the thing that is pushing forward the food behaviors. And it gets intensified when we also go out into the world in environments or on vacations that kind of don't feel entirely within our control, like some of these behaviors are much easier when it's like, hey, I can choose what I want to eat and, you know, cook what I want to cook. But then when we go out into the world, I feel like that gets really, really difficult, especially when pictures are being taken of us as well.
Rachel Evans 11:43
Yeah, I think that was a whole lot of things to unpack. And actually one thing that you, I think, were hinting at, which I hadn't really thought about before, was also on holiday. Like you don't often don't have total control of what food you're having. Like, I do have personal experience with that going on holiday. And is this story relevant? Like we were somewhere nice on holiday with my family. It was, when was it? Think it was. I was just finishing my Masters, so it was at the start of all of that, you know, the rest of the stuff that happened, but I was very concerned about what I was eating. And I'd ordered a curry with rice, and when it came out, because of where we were, the curry was basically like, bones and not meat. And I just started crying because, like, I hadn't eaten enough that day. Like, this was the thing that I was letting myself eat, even though I didn't know what was in the sauce, and, you know, I was kind of willing to put that aside at this point. Other times I was like, I must know the exact ingredients in the sauce, what's in that stock, you know, very, very controlling at some points. But at this point, I was like, okay, I've picked this because I feel on my definition of healthy, it's gonna, you know, fit that I will let myself eat this. And then it was just bones, and I was so upset about it. And my sister was like, you're being so rude. Like, come on. But I just didn't feel like I couldn't control my emotions in that minute. And then I think just spending the holiday thinking about, like, oh, what am I going to eat when? What are we going to have for dinner? Now, can be really tricky when that element that maybe makes you feel a little bit better about your body, because you're like, well, I know I'm going to have this later, and I know we're going to have that, but when that other side of things is out of control, it can sometimes make you feel worse about your body as well.
Stephanie Mara 13:21
Yeah, I completely agree with those moments where, especially when you're kind of in it, when you're in the food behaviors, and you finally have gotten to a point where, like, I hear, even in that moment, it's like the body has taken over. It's like, okay, I can let some of the mental restrictions or categories that I've put things in go for a minute, so that my body's saying it really, really, really needs food, like, if I'm going to continue on with this day and then to receive something, oh my gosh, my heart just sank. Like, hearing that story, like, I've totally been in those moments in the past where it's like, oh, this was not what I was expecting. I like, finally got to a point where it was like, okay, I'm just gonna eat what I need to eat. And you get to that point where your body's like, let's just do this. And then it's like, not what you were expecting at all. And I'm curious just how you've guided individuals when they do kind of go on holiday or vacations, and you know, they're in these moments where they're trying to navigate food the best that they can, and they're also concerned about how that food is going to affect the way that they look like. What have you noticed be supportive in these particular moments?
Rachel Evans 14:31
Yeah, I think one thing that can often be really helpful for people is like zooming out like this holiday, and maybe you'll be eating differently on your holiday. Depends where you go, if you've got an apartment and you're cooking, or if you've gone to a hotel and you're having, like a hotel buffet, but that's like one week or two weeks out of your whole year. So actually, even if you are really, really concerned about health, it's probably not going to have that much impact on your long term health. It's probably not, my opinion, anyway, is it's not going to have that much impact on how long you live, or these other factors, it can feel really, really important. Like every decision about that meal can feel important at the time, but actually in the grand scheme of things, what are the other elements of health that are important to you? Like or well being, broadening that definition? So being like, actually spending time with my family and friends is important to me. Let me think of a stereotype holiday, if you went to, like Australia and had a barbecue, surely that is some of the experience of being there to have these different foods. And I think almost trying to give yourself that bit of leeway and permission to eat. And I think people do have that like, oh, but I'm really gonna beat myself up when I get home. So I think even thinking about, like, you know, maybe you are gonna feel a bit bloated. I think even like traveling on the plane and stuff you know, can not mess you up. That's not the right word, but you know, can back you up a little bit. So I think just sometimes mentally being prepared, okay, I might end up feeling like that. What is something that I could do for myself that is, like soothing, but is, don't even know the right words to describe them sometimes, like a self care thing, like you would be having some peppermint tea or, you know, relaxing a bit for self care, rather than, like, I must absolutely change this bloating, and I'm gonna go to great lengths in order to do this now. Like, how could you be a bit accepting, even if you want to do something to change it? How could it be in a positive way? And I think the same for when you come back home being like, oh, okay, maybe I did have that holiday. Well, you did have the holiday. That's not maybe, but, you know, maybe on the holiday, different things to usual. And you know, I was having that experience, and I was enjoying it, and now my body feels a bit different to when I went, but I like almost giving yourself that permission. You don't have to change it. I mean, you don't have to change it all full stop, but when you feel like you do, you don't have to change it overnight, because it's not even realistic that that's going to happen anyway. You're going to tie yourself in a knot, in a circle, trying for that to happen. So I think that bigger picture can sometimes be helpful.
Stephanie Mara 16:54
Yeah, oh my gosh. I hear so many pieces in that. So first, I completely agree with you, in the in the moment sometimes when the food feels kind of like threatening to your body in and of itself, that, yeah, it's really scary for your body to go through that, especially when there's all this fear about how your body might shift and change on vacation while you're eating this food. And to zoom out, I love that suggestion of, it's kind of like in the, you know, somatic worlds, we would kind of talk about, like, picking up cues of safety around you, and so, yeah, it's like, hey, utilize your senses. Like, what else is happening here? Like, that's only one experience that you're having is with the food, but there's all these other experiences, of like, what's the environment like? Do you like the restaurant that you're in? You know, are you having good conversations with the people around you that sometimes can, kind of like, put in different input that turns the volume down a little bit on all the worries and concerns and fears, and I really appreciate you also naming the moment that can happen after a vacation. Because, yes, there's all these things that can come up on the vacation where sometimes I find some people get really comfortable, of like, okay, I'm prepping myself. I know this is going to be a different way to eat for a week, two weeks, and you know, I'm just going to keep listening to myself and practicing there. But then there's kind of this, like, bubble that gets burst when you get home and you try to, like, expose yourself to different foods and try different foods and enjoy the moment, and then, like you were noting you feel so different when you get home. And I really appreciate your suggestion of just starting to, like, slow things down a little bit that your body can't sustainably change within like, a week or two weeks, like, that's not really going to make much of a difference. And so I'm wondering what you've explored in that transitional period from being on the vacation to, like, being back at home again.
Rachel Evans 18:53
What I was thinking when you were talking is, do you wanna know the funny thing, like, now I'm less concerned about food, and say, when I went to an all inclusive with my husband recently, he was even saying, like, he has a tendency to, like, go way overboard in the beginning, because it's like, I want to eat everything. But I think having that realization that, okay, you know, if you go to a typical kind of hotel that has a buffet, it's going to be similar stuff every day, or within the week, you're going to have a repeat of something more than likely. So actually, almost not getting too excited, being okay, there is this food here, but actually I can have that another day if I want to. So I feel like now I go in with the approach of, I'm just going to kind of eat how I do at home, rather than this is like a special event. I'll let myself have it this week, but then we're going to go back on the diet. I think can lead to more stress around food than just saying, okay, what do I usually eat at home? I mean, right now, I tend to eat quite balanced. Sometimes I don't have, you know, certain foods in the house, or, you know, don't fancy certain things. But as a general rule of thumb, I tend to have, like, proteins, carbs, fats, is that the balance at a meal? Anyway, it seems quite rounded. So that's generally what I would tend to do on holiday as well, unless something else took my fancy, or I wasn't so hungry or so. I think it's actually more about, I suppose it depends where you are in recovery or on your journey and things. But if you have been learning about intuitive eating, or more that kind of style, just thinking like, actually, maybe I am on my holiday. I obviously want to, you know, enjoy it. I've been, you know, looking forward to this. But in another sense, it's just another day with some food. So do we have to put these different foods on a pedestal, or could I have it, you know, a bit later? So and then, because of what you were saying about coming home, I feel after that holiday, probably because I'm not like, hyper aware of my body anymore. Before I was so hyper aware, like, if I woke up feeling like, slightly bloated, that would be a huge issue. But I guess I'm less hyper aware now. I'm still aware of my shorts feel tight or something, but like, I didn't actually notice that much difference when I got back because I was like, actually, do you know what? This is just yes, I'm on holiday, but also I'm not gonna drastically do anything differently in terms of my eating. So I guess my point with that was, if you are listening to this and you feel like you have been, you know, through a lot of ups and downs, and maybe you're feel you're quite stable with where you are now, but you're worrying about a holiday, like, how much differently do you have to do because it's a holiday, probably not too much. Like, there's, you know, probably chance for you to be proactive and decide what kind of meals you're having, even though some of it is out of your control, but not everything. That was also several points in one.
Stephanie Mara 21:27
Yeah, I really appreciate that addition though that there's something about the I'm never gonna be able to have this food ever again experience. So I'm I need to, like, load up. Now there's actually something called the reactance theory that I created a whole episode on of when our body senses its freedom is going to be taken away from it, it goes after the thing that it is sensing its freedom is deprived of. And so like if we think we're going to be in a danish famine, because we're not allowing ourselves to, like, have the danishes or the croissants or whatever at the breakfast in the morning, then your body's going to say, oh, okay. It doesn't have to make logical sense. Like, let's eat five of these, rather than like, hey, I can have this every day and it's going to be here tomorrow and do I want it today, like, kind of slowing down to check in with your body. And I agree with you that it does give a different experience in the moment that it's like, wait a second, we are not being restricted here body. We are not in a, you know, whatever famine is like at that meal in that moment. So I appreciate that suggestion of first just reminding yourself of like, I can have this every day. This is going to be here tomorrow and the next day and the next day, and so each day I can choose what would be most supportive to me. And before we get back to kind of that transitional piece, I'm wondering, like, okay, so as someone's maybe doing this work with the food, there might be some fears that come up afterwards of, oh my gosh, is is that going to make me gain weight? Or, like you said, and I experienced that too, you know, when you've been restricting for so long, bloating is actually really natural and normal, because your body one has kind of diminished the digestive enzymes. It's having a harder time digesting food because you've literally been eating less food. So it's not getting as much work as it typically does. And so, you know, I think there's this piece around like, oh, bloating so bad, and bloating means something's wrong, and not always. Sometimes it's like, yeah, your body's getting used to digesting more foods. But I know that for a lot of people who experience intense bloating, which I certainly did in the past, you know, there can be just a lot of body insecurities that come up. And I'm wondering if you've talked about that with those that you've worked with, or, you know, it sounds like you experienced that yourself as well. What have you found helped in those moments when it's like, okay, yeah, I ate something. It maybe didn't digest very well. Now I'm taking pictures, and my, you know, bloated belly is being captured on camera, which can bring out just so many emotions when that's like, mirrored back as well, when you're looking at pictures.
Rachel Evans 24:15
I think what's helped me with bloating my clients is thinking, like, if I continue giving myself a variety of foods, and, like, don't go back to restricting. Actually, this is just for a lot of people, unless there's some other medical reason, which you can obviously explore if you're a doctor. But like, this is a phase, and you sort of got to keep going through the phase, which is not ideal when you're on holiday. So I think other things are, like, exploring what does bloating mean to you, like you said, like, people might add that belief, like, oh, if I've got bloated, that means I've gained weight, and then that means X, Y and Z, or. I think often on holiday as well, I think people have a fear of other people judging them and their body. And I guess I would talk around that with clients, is like, you know, you might be looking at other people's bodies, because that's important to you, but like everyone on that beach, assuming you're on a beach, a tropical holiday here, you know, they've got a lot of stuff going on. Someone's probably reading their book. They're not even looking at you like people were, like, dive bombing in the pool and stuff like, right now, I've got two small kids, so I would be, like, so busy looking at them that I'm not really looking at like, what other people look like in their bikini. So I think, you know, when I went, you know, on holiday abroad after I'd recovered and was in like, a swimsuit or a bikini, if I got those worries about people judging me, I would just try and think instead, like, either that person's got their own thing going on, why they would be looking at me and judging me not enjoying the holiday, you know, which is for them to sort out, or people aren't even looking at me anyway. They don't even care. Actually, when I I feel like I got to a good place for my body image. And then when I went on holiday, when I was pregnant with my first child, I was kind of in that stage of pregnancy where you don't look pregnant, but you look bigger. And so I feel like I did have a few more thoughts than maybe I had before when I was at the pool, but I thought, well, why does anyone care? I don't know, it just like land, I think when it lands for you, but sometimes it does take practice to get, you know, for that to be a response.
Stephanie Mara 26:09
Yeah, these are so great. First, I really hear just the kind of questioning the body image concern that's coming up. You know, so often when that loud internal dialogue comes in, it's taken as a truth or a fact, that it's like all the mean, harsh things that you're hearing about your body must be true and that like, oh no, you you should do something about this immediately. And you know, then that starts to ramp up where you're, you know, eating less on your vacation and then feeling grumpy and not having a good time anymore. And so first, just saying, okay, first, we have to acknowledge there is a body image concern coming up right now. And like, oh, "Hi body imageconcern!", like, I see you, you're coming up in this moment. Like, what is it about this moment that may be bringing this up right now? And first, just normalizing, like, yeah, okay, so I'm out and I'm in public, and this is anxiety provoking. And can that also be okay? You know, based off of the world that we live in, and there's so much weight, stigma and thin privilege and just all these messages that we get about body image, that it's like, of course, this would come up right now, and I love that you're naming like, just start to notice, like there is a fear that I am going to be judged, that there is going to be an evaluation of my body that leads to, sometimes some of our greatest fears, that people aren't gonna be friendly to me. I'm not gonna feel like I belong. I'm gonna be abandoned by the people that love me or that I believe love me, and so, you know, just saying, like, actually, look, no one's really looking at you right now, like they're, you know, focusing on their kids, and they're, you know, off reading a book, and like, I'm the only one who's actually addressing this inside of myself. I feel like it gives just a greater lens of, like, what's actually happening right here in this moment? Is my body actually being judged right now?
Rachel Evans 28:06
When you said that, I was thinking like, oh, god, maybe someone has been in a situation where, you know, someone's made a comment. Or I was thinking more in terms of, like, you know, a certain type of we have the stereotype in England, a certain type of guy would, like, cat call someone or make a comment like that. So maybe it has happened. And I think like you're saying, actually, if you feel terrible in that moment, like, feel that feeling, that's not nice for someone to say that to you. But then I think like you were reflecting back from what I'd said, like, go through okay. How true is that? What they said? Where does that come from? What's going on for them in that situation? Maybe talk to someone about it, like, if you were on holiday with your friend or partner or someone, they'd probably be like, yeah, that person's massive dickhead. Like, it's not about you. So I think kind of using the other tools if something, if someone did make a judgment on you, which probably not going to happen, but it might happen. So I suppose that fear is a little bit real, but you know, there are different ways that you can cope with that. Then what if it did arise and probably know more than me, because you do the automatic side of things.
Stephanie Mara 29:06
Well, that's a really good point. What we're talking about are two entirely different scenarios, like one is the scenario where no one has actually made a commentary on your body, and you're just sitting there worrying about like you were mentioning, like you're sitting there, you're in a bathing suit, and all the worries and the fears about being in a bathing suit outside in front of people, and how much that can bring up. And then there's the scenario where someone did legitimately make a very inappropriate comment. Something that I'll just add in that is sometimes I like to explore, like, what does that say about the other person? You know, sometimes we take it on so much as like, oh, that must mean something about me, and that must mean I need to do something about that. But what does that say about that other person? That they would feel like they could make a comment about someone else's body, or that they're really struggling with their own body image, and so they're projecting all of their wounds out into the world onto other people. And sometimes that kind of I find helps in those moments. Yeah, go ahead.
Rachel Evans 30:05
My point about this was so when I've done my, you know, own like, so when I trained to do different kinds of therapy, like, I have to tend to be the client as well, or have the, you know, different techniques practiced on me. And one thing that came up was like, I was like, I remember being bullied for having glasses by someone who had glasses, but I took it on board that like having glasses is bad, whereas when I look at it now, I'm like, oh, what was going on there that this other person thought it was all right to be horrible to me about that specific that I needed to wear glasses. So I think sometimes when we do look at it, we're like, oh, this doesn't really make sense, does it? I've been carrying that belief around for ages. I've just made that belief now, but when I look at it, I'm like, hmm, what was going on in that eight year old mind?
Stephanie Mara 30:49
Yeah, yeah, exactly that. It's especially because we learned so much from our environment growing up. And where do we get these messages that they come from culture and they come from family. And, you know, we don't come out into this world just knowing to judge our bodies or to have certain commentary or beliefs about our bodies like these are all things that are taught. And I find that, you know, what we're pointing to is these can really come up very strongly on vacations, and so, you know, like, that's where we get to bring in a lot of compassion when we're on a holiday and say, like, okay, yeah, I'm going to be in different environments around different people, and there is going to be a lot that maybe comes up on this vacation to meet ourselves with a lot of compassion in those moments that I had another person on the podcast, and she was talking about how, like, we're all living in the sea of diet culture, like, that's just what we're all experiencing. And so, you know, it's also like, oh, well, their diet culture is showing like, when someone makes some commentary, of, like, you know, the this is just what is coming up for them. And like, I don't necessarily have to take that on for myself.
Rachel Evans 32:14
Yeah, I when you were saying about people growing up and like, the culture and things, I think it probably is tricky for people now as well with the GPL-1 agonists, and, you know, ozempic and things like that that, you know, people might take them before a holiday or something. Or your friends are doing that, and then, you know, plants that seed. Or should I be doing this as well? Or I think, like, stereotypically, people will go on a diet before the holiday, eat loads on the holiday, and then not be on the diet anymore. You know, people are in kind of a diet mentality, and that's just kind of seen as normal, that we would do this to try and get, like, one clothes size down for the holiday, because that's going to make all the difference ever, not actually the mental turmoil of doing that. So I think it's tricky to navigate. That it can be tricky to navigate that situation. But I think going back to that conversation we haven't before, about, okay, yes, you are on holiday, but also it is just another day as well. Like, I think maybe, like, consistency and recovery is really important, not for everyone, but I just, you know, I guess my clients come to me because that's what, you know, I kind of offer, and that's the approach we kind of take to it. So I think, you know, maintaining that can be helpful.
Stephanie Mara 33:19
Yeah, you know, I talk a lot about this here as well, of how important it is to create structure and routine, especially like at the beginning of recovery, because like there may feel like there is, like too much boundaries, or not enough boundaries, and to create a routine and a rhythm for yourself can actually feel very helpful. Like, I'm wondering, even if you've explored like routines with people, want to bring up just the conversation around looking at ourselves in pictures like after a vacation, that can feel so, so, so tough. You know, I know for a lot of people that I work with, there's just immense judgment and shame that comes up when they actually, like, see their body in a picture, and they're trying to do all the work to, like, be in their body and be in relationship with food and their body, and then they see a picture of their body, and it just, like, destroys everything.
Rachel Evans 34:13
Yeah, I think, like we were saying before, acknowledgement of that feeling. Because sometimes, when you're, you know, trying to find, oh, I've done all this work, and I shouldn't be feeling like this now and I failed recovery, and, you know, that can often not help. So like, okay, I'm feeling this big feeling when I'm looking at this picture. And I think, I guess when I have clients, I can only ask them questions about it, rather than, you know, just give them a different concept. But like, to, you know, have the conversation about the concepts rather than questions. I think when we have this conversation, most people talk to me about like, they realize that a picture is just this kind of 2d snapshot is not actually always the best representation of who you are. Like you've probably seen pictures of people you know, and think, oh, that doesn't even look like them, really. So I think just remembering, and I don't know if you've seen those posts on Instagram, I've not seen so many recently, maybe it's not a trend now, but, you know, the ones with people posing, and they're like, oh, here's me just standing normally, and here's me with my leggings right high waisted, and I'm twisting this way, and the light's like this, and now I look totally different, like I've got a totally different body. So I think it's just remembering a lot of the people that you see in pictures online don't even look like that some of the time, and that's not a judgment on that, and they want to put their best foot forward or what they think is their best foot forward. But it is a little bit deceptive when people then comparing that every day to that. Or, I think there's influencers who are like, oh, here's me pose and here's me on unusual day when I've got some bloating, like, I don't always look like that, but we set ourselves to the standard of this quote, unquote perfect image. So I think it's just having these little conversations with yourself. And I think the more you have them, the easier it's going to be to have it, and the less you'll need to have it. But in the beginning, maybe even journaling, if you like journaling, like, what's coming up for you? What, you know, what is evidence against this? What else do you know about that situation? I mean, I'm not gonna lie, and sometimes I have a picture of myself, like, oh, I look awful. And then I think, oh, Where's that coming from? Like, do I look awful? Like, what's going on there? I guess, because it has been a natural response for me.
Stephanie Mara 36:12
Yeah, absolutely. I don't think any of us don't have a moment where we look at a picture and we're like, oh, that wasn't a great picture of me. Actually, I put out a post a little bit ago, sharing a picture a little over a year ago. I went to the Galapagos with my husband's family, and there was just this picture of me seeing a, you know, 100 year old turtle for the first time. And I was so excited to, like, see this turtle, but it wasn't like, a great picture of me. You know, I'm like, hot, I'm sweaty, like, wearing this oversized, huge sun hat. My first reaction to seeing the picture was like, oh. Like, my heart sank, and I, like, had to take some time with that to first, like, kind of assess it of what am I reacting to? Like, what body image beliefs have I been given throughout my life that I am now seeing that picture through the lens of that and you know, something else that I like to suggest, along with your wonderful suggestions as well, is noticing more the affect first, like I had this huge smile on my face, and if I can remember the moment, like, my husband was so excited to like, take that picture of me, because it was something I kept saying. I was so excited to like, meet an over 100 year old turtle, and what a special moment that was. And so sometimes, like, there's so much focus on the body image piece that we're missing the context that that picture was taken in. And I agree with you that also, like, yeah, you know, I'm kneeling down, I'm hunched forward a little bit, like, it's super bright out. Like, also, probably there are a lot of things that weren't maybe the best posture or whatever, not that I want to say there's, like, a right posture to, like, take a picture, but like, you're pointing out that we look different in different pictures based off of so many different factors, and kind of taking it with like, a grain of salt of like, this isn't a total representation of me. Like, we just don't just, like, stand still in real life, just like, you know, have people get that like you were saying, like, 2d experience of ourselves, like we're constantly, like, moving our bodies, that we're more dynamic in person than we ever are in a picture.
Rachel Evans 38:29
Yeah, I think what I would which is, like an overview of what you're saying, I think, is like, what are you taking the picture of? Like, I guess there are times, like, if I have pictures for my business, then I maybe want to look a certain way because I want to put it on the website. But you know, like you're saying, if you're on holiday, you're kind of taking a picture of that experience in that moment. And that's, this is, like, related, but semi not related. But I think when I take a picture of my kids, I sometimes do compare it to pictures that I see online. I don't know how people sometimes get their kids to pose perfectly in, like, matching outfits, and everything looks lovely in their world. I don't know what has happened, like, the 10 minutes after or whatever, but, like, that's not gonna happen. I posted on Instagram recently about how last year we went strawberry picking, and I'd I'd been looking which kind of strawberry patch to go to, so I'd been seeing other people's pictures, and they're like, lovely summer dress, or, like, their kid in, like, a white outfit in a dirty field and this kid in their pristine white outfit. And I was like, right, you know, my kids need to wear their matching outfits. Someone could have strawberry picking and get this lovely photo. And like, didn't happen. I've got a picture of my daughter, like, biting into the strawberry of, like, juice all down her like dress and her front. I just love that photo. And then this year, it was summer, my daughter was wearing like a wooly hat, wellies that didn't match, like her trousers that didn't match her top, because that's what she wanted to wear. And I was like, okay, fine, that's what it is. I'm gonna stop setting myself this standard that I'm not gonna achieve, and then because I don't achieve it, I'm gonna feel really disappointed, and I'm gonna feel really grumpy when actually the point was that we go strawberry picking and have a nice time. Yes, it would be nice to get that wonderful photo, but I'm probably going to look at it every so often. And you know, in the scheme of things, doesn't not that important to me right now, I've decided.
Stephanie Mara 40:10
Yeah, you point out something actually really important is the expectations that we go into sometimes taking a picture, and that if there's this expectation that I have to look a certain way, or even that you have to like how you look after the picture is taken that already it can kind of set up this cascade of you are already going to be disappointed if it's not exactly the way that your mind is saying you should look in that picture. And so I appreciate just that reminder of your capturing a moment in time that you will never be able to capture that exact moment in that exact situation with those people ever again. And I just think that's such a beautiful moment that you captured of like, you know, your daughter, just like strawberry juice, like all down her her dress, and just like you know, that was a moment that she was having with this strawberry, that if it was anything else, it would have been a different moment that you were capturing. And so I appreciate that reminder of sometimes zooming out when you're looking at pictures, not just at how does my body look, but what is the moment that I was capturing with my body present in it. So I'm curious, you know, as people are listening to this, I always like to offer a baby step. We're talking a lot about how much can come up on vacations. And you know, you've offered so many things today that are so amazing around, you know, zooming out, challenging the internal dialogue, you know, just bringing in a lot of curiosity and compassion, you know, if someone's just like, I really do have a hard time on vacations, you know, navigating the food and my body image and all these things like, what's a baby step that you would offer to someone to start to maybe move towards something different for themselves and their experience of going on a holiday?
Rachel Evans 41:57
Okay, I have two things that we've not spoken about yet, but I think could be really helpful. So one is in terms of, if you, you know, have the luxury of space in your suitcase, would be packing a variety of things, because you don't really know how you're gonna feel at the time. You might have felt like, really good about your body when you're packing and, like, you know, put a skimpy outfit or something, and then you get, you know, on holiday, and you're like, oh, I just want to cover up a bit today. So almost having that variety, or it might have been the opposite like you packed, like, you know, long sleeve stuff, and you're like, oh, actually, I wish I'd bought that vest top or something like that. So I think if you can, you have those clothes available to you, you know, room in your suitcase, taking a variety of things, because you're not, maybe not sure how you're going to feel, like comfortable things. And I think, you know, people are more or less bothered about, like, what is the latest fashion thing? But I think having a mix of things that you're like, right, I feel really comfortable in those shorts, whatever's happening that day, I know they're gonna, you know, they're probably gonna fit me and be nice and okay, these are my ones that I think you know will look good on Instagram or something, but you know, I might not always feel as good in them. So that would be one. The other one is something that we've not talked about, but something that I generally would do with clients near the beginning, if they, you know, are willing. I've not forced anyone to do anything. I've present them the offer. There's actually research about this sort of journal stem about, like, my body can. I'm more looking at like, what does our body do for us, rather than what does our body look like. So it's kind of a nice thing to journal on, like, my body can. I've actually got a blog post about it that maybe you can link, because it gives some examples, because I think people do tend to get stuck. But it's thinking, like, you know, what processes is your body doing? So like, I'm trying to think, what would it be doing on holiday? Like, I guess dealing with the heat, if it's a tropical holiday, or if you've been skiing, like, oh, my body can, like, ski down that mountain, or my body can cope with falling over, if you're falling over a lot, but even stuff like, you know, my eyes are helping me to see and just, you know, just maybe diverting a little bit of your attention that day on, how is it supporting you as well, even if you've just been lying down reading all day, there's actually a lot of processes for your body to, like, keep you breathing and everything that's gone on there. So that can be a really nice one. And it's not saying like, oh, I'm gonna love my body more, but it's just helping take some of your attention to other aspects of your body as well.
Stephanie Mara 44:09
I love that, yeah, because it's taking the focus away from appearance towards you have a body that can do all of these things. And on vacations, I do find that we are exposed way more to what our body is capable of, of, you know, going swimming, of going skiing, of being able to walk for maybe more miles than we do on a typical day, because we're sight seeing. And so there's all these things that we're exposed to, of what our body can do. So I love that, and I do agree with you that you just have no idea how you're going to feel in your body from day to day on a vacation, and so having lots of different variety of clothing around can be so helpful so that you can kind of slow down tune in in the mornings and say, okay, what's gonna feel most stabilizing to my body today based off of the clothes that I dress myself in? You know, I know there are certain textures or certain fits to certain shirts or pants or things like that that are much more calming to my body based off of where I'm at that day. And clothing can be another resource to bring in to say, hey, I'm safe to be in my body today on this vacation. And so I love that suggestion of just having lots and lots of variety. And also, just like zooming out of hey, I am not just here for people's view and that like, I'm here to experience my body, and this vacation can also show me how much my body can do. So really, wonderful suggestions.
Rachel Evans 45:48
Yeah, quickly I want to bring in something else that I was thinking before this episode is like Beauty and the Beast thinking. So it's like, kind of this idea that we think, oh, because that person's beautiful, that means that I'm ugly. But when we think about it, well, that's not really the case. Is it like, different? You know, different you know, different people will have different ideas of what is beautiful, but one person can conflict with the other, and I feel that's really highlighted, you know, like, oh, thin is in oh, now you like, need a Kim Kardashian booty and a small waist and this kind of body type. Oh, now strong is, I can't remember what it what was the slogan, almost not strong as sexy. There's nothing about being strong anyway. I just think about being on a hamster wheel that would be so, so exhausting to try and keep all of those things. And actually, there are things about you already that are beautiful, and because someone else has different traits and quality is it doesn't mean that you are less than I like to keep that in mind.
Stephanie Mara 46:40
I absolutely love that, you know, it starts to question this idea of what we're taught around what is beautiful, and what you're pointing out is, if we even look at the history of body image, it's like, who are creating these trends that we go through? Like, yeah, thin is in or, you know, strength is, like the new thin, or whatever, I totally hear what you're saying, like, whatever those things were that it's, yeah, we are being shaped by our culture, but you don't have to participate in that. And that just because someone else is whatever, like, we look at someone and we're like, oh, they are totally an attractive person, doesn't mean that you are less attractive or less beautiful in your own unique ways. All that is saying is like, okay, that's an attractive person, and you are an attractive person in your own unique way. And that, you know the saying like, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, that, like, we cannot define even what beauty is, because that is a perception. And everyone has their own perceptions of what is beautiful. Kind of if you go to a museum like every single person is going to be attracted to different pieces of artwork, but they're all amazing within themselves. Yeah. So I love that addition. Thank you so much for sharing all of your wisdom today. And I'm wondering how individuals can keep in touch with you and the work you're doing.
Rachel Evans 48:07
Yeah, so I'm most active on Instagram, but not every day, which is rachel.evans.phd. I have a few blogs on my website, which is eating disorder therapist.co.uk. I also have a podcast, which I would love for you to be a guest on some point, but I am so sporadic and overwhelmed at the minute, it's there, there's back there's a back catalogue, but you know, you'll get a surprise episode, and then three, and then on. So, you know, follow along if you want to get the updates about that as well.
Stephanie Mara 48:36
Awesome. And yes, I would be happy to come on, and I will leave all of those links in the show notes, so individuals can keep in touch with you and just thank you so much again for being here and having this conversation.
Rachel Evans 48:47
Oh, thank you so much.
Stephanie Mara 48:51
Yeah, well, to everyone listening, reach out anytime if you have any questions, support@stephaniemara.com we will keep exploring more body image things next week, so I will be in touch soon, and I hope you all have a safety producing and satiating rest of the day. Bye!
Keep in touch with Rachel:
Website: https://eatingdisordertherapist.co.uk/
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