What is Health? How to Define it and Discover What it is for Yourself

Welcome to the Satiated Podcast where we explore physical and emotional hunger, satiation, and healing your relationship with your food and body. I'm your host Stephanie Mara Fox, your Somatic Nutritional Counselor. I'm thrilled to introduce you today to Brenna O'Malley. Brenna is a Registered Dietitian and founder of the Wellful based in San Francisco, California. The Wellful is a non diet community and virtual private practice. Brenna loves helping people find food freedom from diet, culture, and food guilt so that they can do the things they love without letting food rules or a number on the scale dictate how they show up for themselves each day. Welcome Brenna.

Brenna O'Malley 00:47

Thank you so much. I'm so excited to get to chat with you.

Stephanie Mara 00:50

Me as well! So I would love to start off just learning a little bit more about you and the Wellful and how you got into this work.

Brenna O'Malley 00:59

Yeah, I think the background or how I how I ended up getting into here was, I saw a dietitian in high school for my own GI issues that were like kind of food intolerances, figuring out what that was I had some food allergies and intolerances. Celiac runs in my family. And so I had a really positive experience with that dietitian. And I also had the experience of taking the sort of like innocent supposedly supposed to be helpful, like food rules or listening to my body in this way, right or like potentially having this intolerance. And I think a combination of being like 15 at the time and a combination of living in diet culture, combination of like, however, that sort of manifested of just being someone who had to be a little bit more aware of what I was eating, turned into my own, you know, disordered eating and body dysmorphia struggles. And so I think that both of those separately were interesting pieces that I didn't think about exploring this as a field or career until later into college. When I had like, done some marketing, I thought I wanted to work in marketing. And I had worked for some startup food companies and some like, really cool women entrepreneurs in New York, and I loved the startup space. And then I realized how influenced we are by food marketing and by like the messages that we get on food products. And so sort of started to like marry those two pieces of training under and working for some like eating disorder, private practices in New York City. And also these like food companies. And you know, seeing how language is important when we talk about our bodies language is important and influential in how we talk about food, and decided to become a dietitian and my like, sort of roundabout way so that I can have those similar relationships to that dietitian who I worked with in high school, but also sort of marry these two pieces of a non diet approach, Intuitive Eating, relationships with food and how we talk about food. So I started the Wellful in 2017 as a newsletter, and then started taking clients and about worked under some other private practices trained under some other people. Yeah, and so now have been now fully take clients under the Wellful is all virtual, I'm based in San Francisco, but I see clients all over around disordered eating and relationship with food and recovery from diet culture. And this feeling of confusion and overwhelm, that often comes up around food even from kind of that more innocent place of like an interest in health or wanting to eat in a certain way to like, work through some like GI issues or intolerances or those different things. But I think because of the culture that we live in, and I know we'll talk a little bit more about this, it can end up feeling a bit more murky and tricky than maybe it initially intended for it to be.

Stephanie Mara 03:43

Oh my gosh, we have very similar backgrounds.

Brenna O'Malley 03:47

Yeah?

Stephanie Mara 03:47

My journey also started with digestive issues. And so I really appreciate you bringing this up of actually how confusing and complicating it can become, when you have this initial intention of wanting to try to heal something that actually like on the spectrum of disordered eating, eating disorders can kind of start falling into that realm. And it's really confusing. I would love for you to share more about, like, what are some red flags that someone can pick up on when they're like, but I'm trying to heal this thing, but now it's actually falling a little bit into disordered eating behavior.

Brenna O'Malley 04:30

I think that you know, having some awareness as you go into like even if maybe like you have no experience with digital or dieting you've had like a, you know, relatively neutral relationship with food from so far right. But you're kind of exploring these different pieces. I think just like having a radar around it and being like, okay, how can I eat in a way that supports my health or feels good, right, or like, you know, eats and eats foods that are safe to me or allows myself to like, be safe in these different situations of eating right and If there might be some, like added level of needing to ask questions about the menu or look at the menu ahead of time, or look at these different things, and saying, but like, can I still add in like flexibility and allow myself to enjoy these foods as I can. So I know something that was tricky for me with that was like I, you know, wouldn't let myself have like, the like gluten free fun foods, like I was like, Oh, well, I guess I'll just never have like bread or like baked goods, because like, it's like, I can't eat the real ones that I just won't have the gluten free ones, right. And I think part of that was like, they didn't taste as good. They were like, not as exciting. But I think the other part of it was like, Oh, this is kind of like a sneaky way for me to like, have a reason or like an acceptable excuse to not have these different foods. And so I think that, right, if you're eating in a way that supports your health, that you should also be able to, like, enjoy foods too. And like, feel included and eat community meals are in these like different events. And like, does that mean you can bring different options to like a group dinner or like a potluck, or some things that you know that you can participate in those things. So I would say some back to the red flags, I think that some red flags could be like, if it feels like there's like, guilt or shame around those foods, if it feels like your way of eating that supporting your health from this, like relatively goal being neutral perspective, if it feels like there ends up being some morality there, if you end up feeling a little bit maybe like judgmental of your own or other people's food choices, especially something that can happen is a lot of food intolerances that are really common, like dairy, gluten, you know, some of these ones, are also co-opted by diet culture, which is totally separate. And so it can feel like, you know, you know, you're making these choices, because they make you feel good, because you have this intolerance, because you're exploring eating in this way, right. But then, in the context of our society, someone could view that as, like you being on a diet or this being unnecessary, or a lot of other people doing this, you know, for more like weight reasons, or diet reasons, or whatever it is. And so, I think inherently, there needs to be some like grace, or, you know, we can add in some like compassion for yourself, because it's difficult to navigate to, you know, of like, you're doing this for these reasons, but like, how can you kind of remind yourself or give yourself like, the reminder that this is about you, this isn't about other people? Or how can you, you know, be cognizant of trying to piece apart when it feels like that's being a little bit sneaky or feeling a little bit more like diet cultury than you taking care of your health in that way.

Stephanie Mara 07:37

Yeah, I really hear you bringing in just this aspect of intention of okay, am I doing this to control my body? Or am I doing this to support my body? And really getting curious about what's the intention behind why you're doing what you're doing?

Brenna O'Malley 07:54

Absolutely. Yeah. And kind of like checking in with with yourself too, right? Of like, How does this feel? This is maybe it's like a really big change in how you're eating or how you're grocery shopping. And like, that is hard. And like giving yourself like grace to like, grieve those foods too. Right? Like, it's, it's really hard to like, maybe have some of your favorite foods and then be like shifting, the intention might be like, right, you might be like, Okay, well, like, this is like for my health and my body doesn't really react, you know, well to these foods or these different reasons. And it's okay, that it's hard, right? Or it's okay, that you miss those other pieces of like, maybe being able to, like, have your friend like bring over something for you to eat and not needing to, like think twice about it. Right. There's some like, added level of like, work there. And, and that's challenging to navigate through.

Stephanie Mara 08:43

Yeah, if we could redefine health. You know, I think there's the diet culture definition of health, and how would you define health?

Brenna O'Malley 08:55

Yeah, well, I define health...I think that that's a great question. And I normally ask all of my clients to define health because I think that if you were to Google Health, you would find a million definitions of that, right. And I think that, you know, I heard someone say this, and I was like, I think at a conference or I was talking to someone else, and they were saying that they think of health as like, being able to do what you want to do for as long as you can something around along those lines of like being able to like go through life, like do these different things and enjoy life for as long as you can being healthy. I think that that's like an interesting definition of it. To me, I think it's like really dynamic, I think it changes and I think defining is helpful because I think my definition would be very similar to that would be like being able to like do things that make me feel good, be able to like be flexible, be able to like live my life and be able to like do that for you know, as long as I can when I when those things change, like being able to like adjust so that those things can change but I think noticing for someone else if there's like, morality attached to that if there is a body size attached to that if there is this, like moral obligation attached to that, like those different pieces, I think that health can be such a loaded word, honestly.

Stephanie Mara 10:17

Yeah, absolutely. And I love that you're bringing in that health is self defined. There isn't this one quintessential end all be all definition of health. Every single person gets to discover that for themselves.

Brenna O'Malley 10:30

Mmhmm. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's also why so many things are like individual right. And it's like, really hard to, I think when I was saying health in terms of like, like a food allergy intolerance perspective, I think the idea of that would be like, maybe not having, you know, this reaction that maybe your body has, right, or knowing that like, your body doesn't react well to this food or can't process this type of food. Right. And so it's not inherently saying that you're unhealthy. If that is happening, right. I think that is where things get really murky that maybe like, kind of choosing choices that like, feel good in some way. And I think that mental health has a lot to do with that too. Right? And kind of like looking at this like, approach of how can you take care of all of those aspects of your, of your well being and self and these pieces too.

Stephanie Mara 11:18

Yeah, thanks for bringing that in. I find that with health, we're so focused on our physical health, but especially in the world that we're living in right now, ya know, mental health is so so so important. What have you explored with your clients even recently, around just enhancing and increasing their their mental health?

Brenna O'Malley 11:37

Hmm, I think a lot of it is compassion and giving yourself space and kind of lowering the stakes of like, how can you take care of yourself today, right. And like, if especially something that comes up often in working with like, disordered eating, and relationships with food and body images, a lot of like, because of this messaging around, almost like eating in a certain way, or, you know, pursuing these different body goals in some way, or these like ways of eating a lot of the times at the expense of mental health, right of like, okay, I'm eating in this certain way that I feel obsessed with food, or I don't think about anything else, but food, and I'm not socializing, and I'm not doing these other things that are really important to me. And it's like, I think that that would be a good question. For someone who's feeling that way. Right? Of like, how does that like align with or not align with your definitions of health are like what's important to you? Right? Because food is more than food. And like, we are not just eating for fuel we're eating for a lot of different things we're eating for convenience we're eating because it tastes good. We're eating because it's social, because it's traditional, because it's attached to these different memories, right, and as well as something that we all have to do every day. And so I think acknowledging that link to like that piece of mental health, but then also that, right, if you're feeling emotionally drained, or are feeling stressed, or are feeling like unsafe in your body, or feeling unsafe in the world, or feeling, you know, upset physically, like that impacts not only your mental health, but also how you're able to like, like move throughout the day, or how much energy you have to like, make a meal for yourself, or what it feels like to eat or rest or do these other things. And so I think, kind of looking at, or, you know, kind of thinking about how can I do something for myself today, right? Like, how can I, you know, maybe it doesn't look like what someone that Instagrams, like, perfect quote, unquote, like day looks like but how can I, you know, take care of myself today? What does that mean? Does that mean like, looking out the window while I drink my coffee? Does that mean like taking a rest? Does that mean calling your friend does that mean ordering takeout? Because I just don't have the energy to eat. And I just like don't want to think about it, does it mean making a convenient meal instead of something that's like Instagrammable, or whatever it is. And I think that those pieces can be helpful because those also not only align with health, right? Like, even if we take health off the table, it's just how you're taking care of yourself throughout the day. And I think that we all need a lot of that, especially recently over the past few years.

Stephanie Mara 14:05

Yeah, I really appreciate you breaking it down of what can I just do today? Even what can I just do in this second of looking around the room taking in my environment. What might feel nourishing right now physically, emotionally, mentally, and sometimes it's just when things feel so overwhelming, breaking it down to this this second, this microsecond of how can I care for myself in this particular moment, so often we're potentially living in the past or projecting ourselves into the future. And you know, it can make health feel really complicated, especially when you're talking also about disordered eating or eating disorders. And sometimes there can be a voice of like perfectionism. Like you got to get it right in this moment, and if there was no right thing, this is where also body wisdom gets to come online of well, what is my body just telling me right here and right now would feel okay. That might be like, watching Netflix or watching a movie or like, ya know we kind of have these, I think expectations around what self care is supposed to look like, like, go take a bubble bath, just like, what if you don't want to, ya know what if you just want to laugh and watch a good movie and kind of normalizing the spectrum of things that can be supportive to us in any moment.

Brenna O'Malley 15:28

Oh, totally. Yeah, I love to I mean, I think there's a million versions of this, but I work with clients will write like a feel good list. And so it's just like a list of things that like, either things that they do and typically feel feel nice around, right. So maybe it can be like a total range of things that take a lot of effort, take things that don't take much effort, but they're just kind of like a list of sort of, like self soothing, or self care, or just nice things. And so it might be like, like some things online or like calling friends or family, going to, I'm really like a few miles from ocean beach here in San Francisco. So like, ride my bike over there, like get over there somehow. And like that feels really nice, or getting coffee outside or watching like a feel good movie, or doing some sort of movement or drinking water, right? Or like laying down or, or going on TikTok, right, like depending on whatever it is. And just like having that list ahead of time too so that in the moment, you're not like, oh, my gosh, I need something and I have no idea where to start. It's like you have this little list that you've made for yourself ahead of time, which can be nice, which is also kind of caring for yourself, like preemptively.

Stephanie Mara 16:35

Yeah, that can be so important. Because in the moment, if we are in a fear response, we kind of forget what our choices even are. And so just to prepare ahead of time what your choices can be, so that you remind yourself you have a choice can be so powerful.

Brenna O'Malley 16:50

Totally, totally. Yeah. And it's like a nice, you know, I think it also can be hard sometimes to like even think about the tools like often I'll ask clients like, what are your who are your support? Like, what are your support systems? And like, what it how do you manage stress and like these different questions, right. And sometimes, it can be hard to even think about, you know, or to kind of like, think of that on the fly. And so kind of giving yourself, maybe if you were to think about over the course of a week, or over the course of a month, like who were some people that were like, helped you feel supported? Or what were some things that, you know, made you feel good, maybe they weren't even something that you used intentionally as a coping mechanism, but maybe it was just like, Wow, it's so nice to like, see that friend on Tuesday, you know, and like, so maybe it's like, okay, seeing this friend, you know, feels really nice to me. And like, I think that it doesn't mean that you don't have those things or can't think of them, I think that we're not always thinking in the lens of like, what are my support systems who what are my coping mechanisms, I think we have much more language around that more recently. But other times, you're just kind of like going about these different things and like doing them right, and so almost like giving yourself the opportunity to sort of plant that seed in there. And then notice, when are the times that you feel supported one of the times that you want some more support around when are the times that you like feel really good being around a certain person or group of people or doing an activity. And I think that all sort of adds to your like, evidence box of like, these are things that felt really nice to me. And these are things that maybe I'll go back to in the future too.

Stephanie Mara 16:51

Yeah, what I'm hearing in that is just paying attention. Sometimes when you're first starting to go on this journey of enhancing your physical or mental health care, that you don't really know what feels satiating to your unique self. And that might take some time to explore and discover that and so it's trying something like you had to one day say, I wonder what it would be like to bike to the beach. And then you went and you did it. And you got to notice, okay, how did that feel? You know, and just learning. Oh, that felt good. Sometimes it takes time to learn what feels good to our unique selves, not necessarily what we've been suggested or recommended externally.

Brenna O'Malley 19:01

Totally, totally. And then sometimes I feel like, you know, I'd be like, Oh, I'm like feeling this way today. And then like, either, most of my friends would be like, You should go to the beach. Like, okay, great. You're right. You know, like, I think you certainly still need that like, push of like, oh, right, I have these things that, you know, do feel good. Or, you know, it's like helpful to have those reminders too.

Stephanie Mara 19:23

Yah community. Even as you learn those things, sharing with your community. Okay, these are things that I'm learning about myself that feel good. So when I forget, could you remind me like, sometimes we get to lean on our community a lot as well to further support us and reminding ourselves of what's going to feel like self care.

Brenna O'Malley 19:44

Totally, totally.

Stephanie Mara 19:45

So what do you think is one of the biggest things you've been exploring within your practice with your clients lately around food and body and body image, I feel like this is you know, ever since the pandemic started I feel like it's just grown in more awareness around how many things affect our relationship with our food and our body and our perception of ourselves.

Brenna O'Malley 20:10

Yeah, I think, I think a lot of pieces, I think there's like noticing of when things feel that a link between when things feel out of control, which many things have found, especially over the past few years, and things that make people feel in control, or give this illusion of control. And so a lot of the times that can be around food and body image, so I would say, the control piece, and then also the different narratives that we've had for a really long time around what like, what, what eating should look like, what body should look like, the pressure around that. And I think that unpacking or just like noticing how long those like different belief systems have been in place can be a really powerful, interesting piece to like, have the space to talk about because diet culture as a whole does a really good job of making things feel like an individual's fault or like that someone is like lacking something that they're not able to keep up this diet, or they're not able to stay at this same weight for their entire lives. So it's just such a, you know, not a real thing at all. But there can be feel a lot of blame around someone. And I think that can feel really isolating and feel really, like alone or like that, like this exception to the rule. And like everyone else is able to do these things. Because a lot of the times that's what you see on social media, that's what you see in these like marketing messages. And so I think that there's both increasing community and awareness on social media and in general. And also, it seems to be still this feeling of like feeling really alone in that or feeling at fault, or like, I just think that a lot, I think it's also really just hard to talk about. And so a lot of the times because I've worked with them, maybe you feel like probably feel the same of just like, like the first time that they've said these things out loud, or the first time that they've like noticed that this was a problem or that there was like an alternative to spending your entire life for many, many, many years, really micromanaging food or feeling out of control around food or going on this like binge and restrict cycle or eating differently in anticipation of an event or a wedding or seeing people. And I think that maybe with the past few years of just everything changing and people being so spent in so many ways that I think it was maybe more obvious of just like this takes so much energy and we just like have much less energy, just feeling kind of like drained in a lot of ways. And so I would say that those are some some of the things that have been kind of coming up a lot around like control around feeling alone. Yeah. And noticing noticing how that those narratives and like beliefs that have been there for a long time.

Stephanie Mara 22:57

Yeah, I appreciate you just normalizing all of this that I think for a lot of individuals first, yes, totally agree with you in my sessions as well, how many times I've heard, I've never told anyone this before. And it really just, it breaks my heart a little bit over just how much shame has been created around our relationship with foods that we feel like we can't even tell anyone what's playing out in our relationship with food and that it's okay. Like, even if you're deep in it right now in some disordered or eating disorder behavior like this happening for a reason. And like you're pointing to of, it's maybe supporting you in feeling in control. And a time in this world where there are so many things that continue to come up, that feel out of our control. And so here comes food as your ally and your best friend, helping you feel a little bit of a glimmer of like something is in your charge. And it can be really painful and difficult in the moment when those patterns are playing out. And so I even just heard of what you're saying, just offering yourself so much compassion, that if you're in this right now, like, it's okay, and we need to be talking about it more so that you're not doing it and then shaming and judging yourself for doing what you're doing. Because it's okay that you're doing it.

Brenna O'Malley 24:21

Yeah. And I think like, you know, having more awareness around like seeing seeing more people talking about about, you know, reaching out for support, or like having more support or that these things can change. And I think too, like sometimes almost giving credit to like as different seasons of life change, right? Like something might have been like a really resilient coping mechanism in the past and like maybe your maybe your circumstances have changed. Maybe you have different support systems now. Maybe what felt helpful in the past doesn't feel as helpful anymore. Or maybe it's starting to like the unhelpful parts are starting to outweigh what feels helpful or that like, semblance, or sometimes I call it like the illusion of control that it can provide. And so that might like I think, you know, I think that can help sometimes with like, some of these pieces of shame of like, ah, like, this isn't something that's going on so long. And it's like, actually, it sounds like right now you're in a place where like, this doesn't feel as helpful anymore. And like, maybe you're in a place where you want to, like, shift some of these pieces or have some more support around this or, you know, I think that that can be a really interesting place too of saying, like, it's not I think that people go through a lot in their lives. And like, there's different things that help you get through those really difficult times or different seasons, or you just learned different things, or you're in a different place now. And so yeah, I think that that can be an interesting part to have of almost like giving credit to like both of those pieces, right? Like to say that all of dieting is like completely bad and like never had any positive, you know, piece for you is like I think sometimes missing a bit of the point right of like, one maybe this is like something that was really strong narrative, maybe everyone was doing it, maybe it helped you have community in some ways, maybe it helped you feel in control, in some ways, maybe it helped you like not have to think about food as much initially. And maybe now there's like, actually, now it doesn't feel as supportive. Now I don't really like these different messages. Now it kind of limits me from feeling attuned to my body or being able to be flexible are these different parts and like both of those can exist at once. And that's okay, too.

Stephanie Mara 26:25

Yeah, I love that. And I love that you pointed out at one point, your habits and patterns with your food and body were effective. That's why you kept doing them, because they were giving you at some point what you were looking for. And that when you find someone like you or me, it's just that it stopped working, it stopped giving you what you're looking for. And it's that just is the moment of, okay, you're entering into a new phase in your life, and you're ready to maybe find something else that will give you what you're looking for that maybe feels more satisfying, more like self care long term. Yeah. So how can people find you? And you know, you are, like you said, everything you do is virtual. And I would just love to hear more about like your offerings. And yeah, how people can feel more supported by your work. I follow you on Instagram, you put out fantastic content there. And you know, I really feel your passion for challenging this diet culture in every single thing that you put out. And it's really important that we have more and more voices like that, so people can even pick up on what diet culture is.

Brenna O'Malley 27:44

Yeah, well, thank you. That means a lot. I am mostly on social media, I'm on Instagram at the @thewellful. And then I am newly on I've gotten like locked out of a couple tick tock account. So my newest TikTok is @brennaomalleyrd and I work with clients one on one. So I do a lot of like, it's all virtual. So it's all through like FaceTime, or Skype or Zoom, and working on relationship with food or body image or chronic dieting, or wanting to have a better relationship with food to be able to like eat without guilt and and felt feel more flexibility. I think that a lot of the times when I ask clients like why this is important to them, they're mostly saying something along the lines of like, they want to be able to, like spend this time and energy and brain space that they've dedicated towards dieting towards other things that are important to them. And I think that's just such a cool, you know, it's such a great reframe of like, what are the things that are important to you? Where do you want to spend this time and energy? So yeah, I mostly work through one on one counseling and nutrition therapy from a non diet approach. And my website is thewellful.com as well.

Stephanie Mara 28:53

Yeah, and you know, I always like to kind of leave our listeners with if there was a baby step that they could start taking today towards the kind of maybe relationship they want to be having with their food and body. What's a baby step you would recommend to someone?

Brenna O'Malley 29:11

I would say, I would say that if you were to start noticing the times that you tell your like talk to yourself with like a critical voice around food and body image and just notice it and like label it as that was really critical. Like that's a really critical voice or that's me being really mean to myself. I also don't think that's I think that's a big step. But you know, it could be like some that you could start today of just like noticing it and so maybe it's like when you have something over the weekend or you go out to eat or you just like are making your breakfast whatever it is and you notice yourself being like ooh, I shouldn't have Oh, I did too much here oh, I need to do this other thing and just label like kind of to yourself saying like, okay, that's really critical voice that's me being kind of harsh to myself, and you don't have to like you know, do anything else with it. Just kind of label it as a starting place. And I think it can be interesting to notice how often that comes up around what situations that comes up and gives you sort of like a starting place.

Stephanie Mara 30:09

I think that's a great baby step. It can feel kind of big to slow down and name those things in the moment. And we can't change what we're not aware of. So even just starting to become aware of that felt harsh, that felt critical. And just even just stopping there and allowing it to just be in your awareness now of wow, that was a really mean thing I just said to myself. I find that awareness, it's like a snowball, you know, it just starts to build upon itself where you can then decide, do I want to keep thinking that thought? Do I want to keep being critical with myself? What else could I think about myself right now? What else could I be doing? Or how else could I be interacting with myself?

Brenna O'Malley 30:53

Totally.

Stephanie Mara 30:54

Yeah. Well, I appreciate your time and your wisdom. And just thanks for sharing everything that you did today. I think this conversation around what is health, it's kind of really important because it's confusing, and it's complicated. And I love this takeaway of it's self defined. And I think that also is a really important takeaway from today as well of only you live in your body and only you are going to know what is best for you.

Brenna O'Malley 31:22

Absolutely. I love that.

Stephanie Mara 31:23

Well, thank you again for being here. And to all of the listeners, I will leave all of the links in the show notes. If you have any questions for either of us, I will also leave our contact information in the show notes as well. And I hope you all just have a beautiful rest of your day. Bye!

Keep in touch with Brenna here:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thewellful/

TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@brennaomalleyrd

Website: https://thewellful.com/

Contact: brenna@thewellful.com