The Impact of Food Trauma on Your Eating Behaviors
Welcome to the Satiated Podcast, where we explore physical and emotional hunger, satiation and healing your relationship with your food and body. I'm your host. Stephanie Mara Fox, your Somatic Nutritional Counselor.
I love talking about the wisdom of your present day food behaviors, because I often find it brings in so much compassion that this is not your fault. But I also know that sometimes you can hear about all the many reasons, like trauma, dysregulated nervous system, brain changes, neurotransmitter alterations, gut imbalances, and on and on and on. And it can feel like, how am I ever going to find healing? So, I wanted to offer a reminder today that understanding the past doesn't change the present. It can cultivate more self-compassion and empathy, but it doesn't change what happened. And how your body adapted to protect you is not a problem to be fixed, but rather supported to understand what it needs to feel like it no longer has to rely on those adaptations anymore. Sometimes this somatic approach to food recovery isn't sleuthing through your entire past and healing every single story, but updating your body that it is no longer in those situations and doesn't need the food behavior any longer, where it can finally start to relax and feel safe. I talk about what it really means to be well fed with Rachel Hobbs today.
Rachel is a clinical dietitian, personal trainer, and certified therapist who has been working in the food freedom and body image space for over 15 years. Her work blends clinical nutrition and neuroscience with a patient-centered, trauma informed and compassionate therapeutic style. She is deeply committed to seeing the whole person and supporting each individual's innate capacity for healing and self-trust. Alongside her one-to-one work, Rachel is also a national and international clinical speaker. She provides mentoring CPD training and supervision for health and fitness professionals and consults for the NHS. We chat about a compassion-centered, focused approach to nutrition, how early childhood experiences affect your food interactions, the role of shame in food behaviors, how the nervous system and past trauma shapes food interactions and seeing nutrition through a more nuanced perspective.
This holiday season, please consider supporting the satiated podcast and joining satiated plus to donate a few dollars and receive monthly Ask Me Anything emails. Click on the show notes to learn more and thank you for being here and supporting the podcast. Now, welcome, Rachel. I am thrilled to have you on here, and there are just so many overlaps in our work, so I was so excited to find you. And for anyone who is new to you and the work that you do in the world, I would love for you to first just introduce yourself and how you got into the work that you're doing now, because you've blended quite a few different modalities together.
Rachel Hobbs 03:48
Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. I feel really honored to be here. I am trained as a dietitian. I came into this world actually as a personal trainer, and originally I wanted to become a pathologist, but I became a mum quite young, and there just wasn't the support around where the universities were that did pathology, and I kind of just fell into the world of dietetics. I have experienced a diagnosed eating disorder, the ebb and flow, so it kind of fit with that experience as a as an adolescent. And then, as I got more working with people, I realized there was just a deeper need to take a more compassion-centered approach in the world of dietetics and nutrition, because a lot of people don't need diet plans and calorie counts and those types of things they just need to be seen and heard, and start to gently reconnect to their body and see themselves as someone that deserves to be nourished.
Stephanie Mara 04:51
I love that reframe. Thanks so much for that introduction, but I completely also agree with you that I don't feel like, I've worked with a single person that didn't even have some inkling already around what foods or meals would work best for them. Like, sure we could bring in some reminders around eating consistently and balancing things and making meals that feel really, truly nourishing and satisfying. But I agree with you, that oftentimes it's like we know, like we know what would actually feel really satiating and satisfying to our body, and that there's so much more in the conversation around food, around what is getting in the way, so to speak, of being able to kind of hear our body wisdom and being able to trust that.
Rachel Hobbs 05:40
Yeah, 100% and I think it all stems from our experiences, isn't it? It's probably from before we were even born, and the way that our mothers ate when we were in the womb, impacting our central nervous system, the way we were weaned, whether there was any elements of force feeding, whether we picked up on maternal, even paternal, dietary patterns, and then growing up in, especially in the Western world of diet culture, we're so taught that, you know, we lead with our head and not with our body. And I think it leads to this mismatch and this real just a lack of trust in our own needs, and that, you know, we shouldn't be needy, even though it's basic biology.
Stephanie Mara 06:23
Yes, I'd like to just smash apart that the way that we have learned of what needy is, a societal definition of like, too needy, needing too much. And it's like, how? Like, how could that even possibly be a thing? We are human beings who have needs. And you know, I've said this on previous episodes before as well, of just like, if someone experiences you as needy, that is really their experience in their body, like you're pointing to how our nervous system is shaped, that someone's experience of you may feel like that to them because they are, living in a dysregulated body that maybe is struggling with navigating lots and lots of different things, but doesn't have to do with you, because being a human being that has needs is natural and normal.
Rachel Hobbs 07:12
Yeah, absolutely. But I just feel like no one, no one teaches us that. We're shamed of having needs. We're shamed for a lot of people I work with feel ashamed for experiencing hunger and see this as a really negative thing. We're ashamed of needing rest, of needing sleep, of needing pleasure, and all these things make us human. You know, I always say like humans aren't machines when it comes to like our energy needs, whether we can't just stick them into a calorie counter. And in the same way that we won't need the same thing every single day of our lives, some days we're going to need rest, and some things we're going to need more stimulation, and we shouldn't expect ourselves just to be able to plod along as if we were living like a machine.
Stephanie Mara 07:56
Yeah, and you started to name that, what starts to create that sense of shame, or our experience of our needs starts even sometimes from the moment of conception in the womb. And I know you put out a beautiful post a couple of weeks ago, which is actually things that I've talked about as well, of like, can we look at how much I like to call it food trauma, like, how much food trauma we can potentially have. You started to list it of like what our mother was eating when we were growing, you know, when we came out, what our first initial experiences were like with food. You even added like how we're weaned and like how we transition from like liquids to solids. There's like so many different points in our history that can create our current day relationship with food. And I'm wondering if you could speak more to that. You put out like, 10 slides or something on like, all the many different things that can, like, affect our relationship with food today?
Rachel Hobbs 08:54
Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's something I speak a lot, a lot about with the individuals I get to work with, because I think a lot of people feel like this is a me thing. I just don't have willpower, I just don't have discipline. How can everyone else do this? And we blame ourselves and we shame ourselves so much that we become stuck in this narrative, and we can't even begin to think about, Oh, actually, perhaps there's more to this. Perhaps this is, if I look at this from like a psychodynamic lens, this is has so much interplay with everything from whether we were born by a C section or vaginally, you know, that's going to impact our gut microbiota, which has an impact on our brain, which obviously is going to have an impact on our choices and our behaviors throughout our lifetime. And when we start to see it like that, I think it brings a lot of compassion to ourselves, and then from that place where we're safer, more regulated, we can then listen to our needs and meet them.
Stephanie Mara 09:56
Yeah, yeah. So well said. You know that compassion piece. You've said that a few times now. I find that that is also just so important that, you know when sometimes I find that like, and I don't know if you've experienced this too, like, when I start to explain all the things that can affect our current day relationship with food, sometimes there can be kind of this sense of like, hopelessness, of like, oh well, there's like, all these things that have affected my relationship with food that like, what's the point? I can't even change them now. And I find that it's like, not necessarily going to the past to then say, Oh, well, I'm just stuck here, aren't I? Because all of these things happen, and my body's just reacting to that. It's kind of more what I've seen. And I'd love to hear your thoughts too, of like, just being able to understand it. Of like, Okay, so these things happened. You are not stuck. Things can absolutely shift and change in your body, and we just get to see that the way that you interact and behave with food makes sense based off of your history, and it's all you've ever known. But that doesn't mean that it has to be all you've ever all you ever will know in the future as well.
Rachel Hobbs 11:07
Yeah, and I really like that terminology that you use a lot is that this makes sense. It's obvious that this is going to have some sort of impact on us, but the magic of things like neuroplasticity and you getting to now as an adult make your own choices, means that you don't have to be stuck in these familiar patterns.
Stephanie Mara 11:27
Yeah, and what have you seen start to shift or change once someone starts to kind of understand that their food behaviors aren't their fault?
Rachel Hobbs 11:39
I think probably the first thing that shifts is a greater sense of ease and safety. That when they start to recognize that perhaps there's more to this than just me, and it is more complex, it means I've got greater power. And I think then they can take from maybe when previously they thought they had control in terms of restrictive behaviors. They can take true control over actually, How do I want my relationship with food to be? How do I want my life to feel? Where do I want food to serve me in my life, perhaps where it wasn't or it was previously that I no longer need it in that way.
Stephanie Mara 12:23
Yeah, yeah. And I find at this spot like sometimes it can feel confusing, because we were talking about shame before we hit record, and that shame is such a huge piece on this food recovery journey that I find that so many people have to kind of come face-to-face with and feel and move through. And so I know you work a lot with shame, and I find that even as you're building awareness towards this, Is it my fault? Shame sometimes gets louder, because shame has sometimes been protective from kind of facing or feeling, maybe how you have felt about your environment growing up, or things that happened that you got through but weren't able to feel through. And so I'm wondering how you supported people in like being with shame, or moving through shame, or just even acknowledging that there's shame there and that it feels like what they've been doing with food is wrong.
Rachel Hobbs 13:21
Yeah, so I think shame is a massive piece, and that definitely keeps us stuck in those same beliefs and schemas, and it's obviously served some sort of protective purpose for so long. And I think often, I find it useful for someone to understand that there can be we can hold shame and we can hold nurturance in the same space, if we can go just 1% into more nurturance and sit with the discomfort of that, to be able to actually just test it out. What if this week, I just did a little thing every day to bring more nurturance, you know? And those shame voices are going to be there, but actually that I can tolerate the discomfort of that. And I find this quite a useful way to just introduce the concept that perhaps we don't have to live with this shame forever. And I also feel it feels safe too, to maybe start to integrate some more body based work into it, even if it's just something as simple as a five minute just gentle body scan within a session, just to move outside of shame and just to see where there's space in the body that perhaps doesn't feel quite so tense or just feels a little bit safer or more relaxed.
Stephanie Mara 14:41
I love your suggestion of like, entering into 1% of nurturance, because also I find that, like, shame and a fawn response kind of go hand in hand. Where it's like we're feeling shame and then we're feeling like this, you know, maybe perfectionist part, which is kind of more as we know now, like a fawn trauma response of like, Oh, I'm feeling shame, and I have to heal perfectly, and I need to, like, go all in, and I need to do this just right. And so I, like, have to abolish this shame. So I love your suggestion of, like, can we actually just do this 1%. Like, shame is still going to be there, still going to kind of hang out with you. It's going to take some time for maybe shame to decrease in how loud it is, but 1% more nurturance, and I find that that gives a lot more I like to call it like wiggle room in the nervous system of relief. Of like there's no getting this right, like I don't have to then judge myself for feeling shame, it's like, no, I just can enter into 1% more, maybe kindness and self-compassion and nurturance, and see what that's like to also, I think what you were maybe also naming was to build safety around that, because to step out of shame might not initially feel very safe to do?
Rachel Hobbs 16:01
Yeah, I completely agree. If it's been something that we are so familiar with, it would be the same way if someone was engaging in disordered eating behaviors, just to say, just stop doing them now and start to live life. I always say it's a bit like you don't want to just strip off a coat that's been protecting you, because I think that's probably what shame is doing, in part, because it's going to feel freezing, and you don't have the skills, and you are not adapted to this cold temperature, but we just want to slowly, like under a button, and then adapt to that level and under another button and just see how it feels, so that we are just slowly widening our comfort zone and bringing ourselves more safety and getting to know what the shame is there for. Just being curious about it, like you said, in terms of not being judgmental. Like, why are you here? What are you protecting? Get to know it. Befriend it a little bit.
Stephanie Mara 16:50
Yeah, yeah. You know, I know we were talking about earlier of just, I know so many, I'm going to say specifically women, because that's predominantly who I work with, but anyone may experience this as well. But I know so many women that haven't really grown up with role models of what it's like to praise yourself or acknowledge yourself or be kind to yourself. What we grow up around, and I say we because I'm including myself, because I grew up around this too, is like diet culture and always feeling like you need to be fixing yourself, or you can't acknowledge yourself or celebrate yourself, because then is that considered being self-absorbed? You know, there's all these really kind of toxic messages we get around how we're supposed to show up as women, that it does facilitate more shame, because it feels like we can never get it right, which then the food comes in to help us feel a little bit better in our bodies, because that can just lead us towards nervous system shutdown.
Rachel Hobbs 17:56
Absolutely. And I think that's such a huge topic, isn't it, that leans into kind of capitalism, the patriarchy, and how that always impacts us in our nervous system state. Because if we're always, you know, restricted, looking for something to fix this non-problem, then we're never going to feel safe, and either food or restriction is always going to be something that we can control or utilize and then attempt to bring some sort of regulation to our world that doesn't feel safe, because no one's ever shown us that it's safe.
Stephanie Mara 18:29
Yeah, I'm wondering what you've explored with people to even start to create that, like role model for themselves. Or how have you started to help your clients move towards like, what does that look like? And I know for and I only say like, ask this question, because I know for a lot of those that I also work with, sometimes we have to get really creative. Because when you don't grow up with a role model, sometimes I'll go towards like, movie or TV shows or things like that, where it's like, can we create what a role model would be for you if you had that kind of woman in your life that was like empowering you and pumping you up and teaching you how to celebrate yourself? I'm wondering what you've explored with those that you've worked with.
Rachel Hobbs 19:16
So we've done some visualization work, and sometimes that comes out as often, like an Auntie that's going to be there, almost like, like, some people might say that they've got, like, they refer to it as, like, an eating disorder voice on their shoulder. And then we try and do it as you're, like, empowering Auntie on the other shoulder to try and give you what you didn't have when you were a child. We also sometimes find some people it doesn't feel safe enough, but a little bit of inner child work incorporating some maybe hypnotic techniques might be useful in some circumstances, but often just feeling into their body in terms of what would life feel like if I was to try on a different pair of shoes today, and I actually experienced life from a place of self-worth and esteem and not needing to change or fix anything, but rather just to be present in it?
Stephanie Mara 20:10
Yeah, yeah. Obviously, we talk a lot about somatics here, so I love that you're bringing that piece of embodiment, that sometimes it is also just being in the present moment with one like you're naming, like, What does this feel like right now? Can we make space for it? Can we be present with it? Can we get curious about what it needs? And also, I find that, you know, especially if we don't have kind of those role models, or don't even know what it feels like to feel safe in our body sometimes, like you're pointing to it is breaking it down into like, Okay, well, let's first notice moments tiny, tiny, tiny moments that you feel relaxed and connected. And just to like note, like, Oh, wait a second, like, Oh, I feel relaxed right now. I feel relaxed waking up in my bed, or I feel relaxed driving somewhere and arriving at my location on time. Like these tiny, tiny little moments where we do get these little moments, maybe of hits of relaxation and safety and connection. And, you know, that's what I hear in what you're describing is like, we first need to just break this all down to be like, Okay, so yeah, sometimes kind of shame is running the show, and we know what that feels like, but we don't know what it feels like in the body yet to live more in a relaxation response, so that maybe food doesn't need to come in as much to help you get into the relaxation response.
Rachel Hobbs 21:38
Yeah, absolutely. So it was Deb Dana, wasn't it that she named the exercise? I can't remember what she called it. When her exercise, she put your hand to your heart. Do you remember?
Stephanie Mara 21:47
Yeah, I took Deb Dana's training as well. You talking about like, hand to the heart and hand to the back of the head?
Rachel Hobbs 21:53
When you notice, Oh, okay, I'm in safety and connection. I'm in my window of tolerance. Does she call it not a sparkle, something like
Stephanie Mara 22:00
Oh, a glimmer!
Rachel Hobbs 22:01
A glimmer. That was it, yeah. A glimmer.
Stephanie Mara 22:04
Yeah. I was thinking of the exercise of vagal connection, where she suggests to put, like, when you're wanting to kind of land yourself in the moment, get some vagal toning, like, putting one hand on your chest and one hand on the back of your head to feel kind of that mind body connection. And kind of like, you know, we have vagal nerves in the back of our neck, so I was thinking of that. But yes, her practice of kind of pausing throughout the day and naming glimmers around you. Which, for anyone who doesn't know what glimmers are, who's listening to this, you know, they're basically picking up in your environment right now, if you were to look around and like, notice something that you like. I kind of like to explain it like that, like. I like to call it like a safety cue. But sometimes, if you don't even know what safety is, it's like, Well, anyone can look around their environment and say, so what is something that I like? It could be a color, a shape, an object, nature outside your window, if you have a fur friend in the room. And then just kind of noticing, when I look at this thing, what changes in my body. And so, yes, I agree with you. That's such a fantastic practice, because when we don't know how to facilitate relaxation in our body, sometimes we can utilize our external environment to facilitate that.
Rachel Hobbs 23:18
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that the thing that I find is that the most important word that when you are speaking then, that you used, is 'noticing'. Like it's not like judging or not like trying to change anything. We're just noticing how this feels. We don't get that in life unless we give ourselves that.
Stephanie Mara 23:38
Yeah, I agree. I know that I really had to work at shifting from not going straight into judgment, like that voice of judgment can come in so quickly. And so it had to be this, like, ongoing practice at first, like naming the pattern of, Oh, I'm going to judgment, yep, I'm going to judgment again. Like having to first, like, pause and practice just noticing that that's what's happening to then, be able to have choice that, like, you can do something different. It's like, Okay, I can choose to stay in judgment if that's really where I feel like I need to stay. But I also could shift my attention to something else and maybe notice what happens.
Rachel Hobbs 24:20
Yeah, and like you said, I think for some people, that something else feels so like a stranger, doesn't it? If we're spending a lot of time in judgment, the judgment of our food choices, judgment of how we're choosing to show up in the world, it almost becomes so familiar and that pattern that it's very almost like our nervous system will see anything else as a threat. So then that feels really hard to change, because our body is going into threat response, not because we're doing something wrong, but because we're doing something different. And I think for someone that's maybe spent a lot of time living outside of their body, even doing something different, in terms of, I don't say much about nutrition, like regular nourishment, that's not wrong, but it's so different, and that's why we're getting experiencing anxiety or or increased shame thoughts, or the voice ED voices get louder because it's unfamiliar.
Stephanie Mara 25:15
Yeah, yeah. And I know that you put out beautiful examples of what you went through. And I'm wondering, like, how you shifted, for even yourself, of feeling like nourishing your body and nourishing your body well, started to be safe. You know, I know you've put out some work around like, this is the kinds of foods that I eat now, and it's safe to eat this way, but I'm wondering what that process was like for you.
Rachel Hobbs 25:43
So, in my, I would say in my teenage years, when I was very restrictive around my eating, it was a white knuckle kind of ride in terms of just go with it. Because in the UK, back then, this was about 20 years ago, they we just didn't have enough support. There's still not enough support with individuals struggling with their relationship with food. But back then, you had to be under a certain weight. It was very strict, and unless you met the parameters you didn't, there just wasn't the support because of the lack of funding. And everyone is obviously doing the best they can. It's still hard. And then I had to lean strongly into discomfort and find ways to manage the discomfort of making these changes over time. But I think probably predominantly, it wasn't really about the food. It was creating a safe environment where I could feel safe and stable and regulated enough to have capacity to cope with the discomfort and make the changes. So that was probably environmental shifts. It was probably upskilling in, in coping skills, and then I could tolerate actually, let's try, you know, swapping, I don't know, white fish for oily fish, even though it's higher in energy and might have an impact on my body. And then you notice, oh, actually, this doesn't just have an impact on my body. This has an impact on my brain, and it feels good. You know, things feel clearer, and I've got, you know, more dopamine, and my gut health feels better. Let's try another change. I think safety and stability is the fundamentals of anything.
Stephanie Mara 27:19
Completely agree, it's the groundwork of my work as well, because, yeah, when you feel like you are operating more from that parasympathetic nervous system, yeah, there is less fear. There is more ability to rationalize or logic or move through different food experiences with more capacity. So I completely agree with you, and I love that you're also continuing to reframe that it wasn't really about the food, and we talk so much about that here, but I love that you're bringing that home again, and that, like it was about everything that was revolving around the food. And I'm wondering when you talk about, like, changing the environment, because I love exploring that as well. You know that concept in polyvagal theory of neuroception, which is our we're always scanning our environment for cues of threat or cues of safety, and so even our environment that we're eating in can play a huge role in how we interact with food, or what foods we choose, or how we digest that food. And so I'm curious to hear more around what you noticed needed to change in your environment, and when you did that, what happened?
Rachel Hobbs 28:26
So I think probably mine was more of a large change. I left an abusive relationship, and that created a huge amount of safety in my life that I didn't experience for years prior to that, and that gave me the space and the empowerment and just again, safety and stability in everyday life, that enabled that window of tolerance to expand. And for me, it never felt forced. It just kind of felt natural to make those few changes. And I think once you've become well fed and well nourished, unless there was something incredibly traumatic that happened for me. I would never see myself going back.
Stephanie Mara 29:05
Yeah, yeah. Thank you so much for sharing that. You know that, like there was literally something in your environment that was constantly making your body feel unsafe, and that, yeah, I really hear that actually it was quite easy, or there was maybe just more ease to shift your food interactions when that cue of threat was no longer in your environment anymore.
Rachel Hobbs 29:30
Yeah, something that comes up quite a lot is that we use the tools that we have at the time, and we can't beat ourselves up for not knowing what we didn't know. So if our only tool is to lean on food or lean on restriction or lean on obsessive exercise or work, alcoholism or whatever it's to then look back and shame ourselves for doing that is unhelpful.
Stephanie Mara 29:51
Yeah, I completely agree. It takes something that actually helped you survive a really hard time of your life that you were maybe living in a more dysregulated nervous system state and then judging yourself, usually unconsciously, like this isn't like a conscious thing that you're choosing to, like, judge or shame yourself, but unconsciously judging and shaming yourself for what you needed to do to survive, what I think of like binge eating or restricting. You know, these were behaviors that happen at a time of life when you needed to find some way to survive an environment that did not facilitate safety, like you're talking about. And so like we've been saying of like, this compassionate piece of like, it's so important that even when you are starting to say, I want to make a change, to maybe explore making those changes, not from a place of that shame, of like, Well, I'm running away from what I did, and maybe more towards running towards yourself, of Wow, thank you body, so much for giving me these impulses to survive this experience, and I want to help you know now that I don't need those cues anymore, and you can start sending me different cues now.
Rachel Hobbs 31:12
Yeah, because I'm safe now. Yeah, that makes complete sense. I think when you were saying about that, what was coming up for me was this, this idea that I think a lot of our eating behaviors are pathologized like, this is something wrong with you, rather than this is something that supported you. This was just a coping skill from your box when you didn't have many other coping skills, or those skills were inaccessible. And actually, to say, especially if it doesn't feel right for that individual to see it as a as an illness or something wrong, actually, for them to understand this is just something that really helped you at the time, and we can thank that, and it's always going to be in our box of tools, but we can also build on those tools now.
Stephanie Mara 31:58
Yeah, it's exactly why I've actually been using the term eating disorder, or disordered eating less like sometimes I'll say it just to reference what I'm talking about. But I've kind of been more calling it just like food recovery, because I'm like, this is not disordered. This is not maladaptive. This is like, the wisest, most adaptive thing you could have done at this point in your life. And so I find that even the language that we use when we talk about struggles with food is also somewhat shame based, just coming back to our conversation around shame that I feel like we need to update the language a little bit of like, let's actually make other people, and you know, anyone who is struggling with food, feel like, hey, like we were saying before this makes sense. And thank goodness that you actually enacted this behavior with what you were going through. And let's just support you in not feeling like you need to lean on this behavior as much anymore, because now, long term, it's not really supporting you and feeling the way you want to feel, and feeling safe in your body and all of that. I'm wondering your thoughts on, just like, you know, it's like, happening in real time right now in my head of like, Yeah, our language is, like, really shame based in this, like, food recovery field.
Rachel Hobbs 33:21
Yeah, no, I completely agree. In terms of it does sometimes feel, it feels hard to name it as an eating disorder, or like disordered eating, because it's functional, it is serving a huge perk at that time. And unless someone really relates to that experience for themselves, then it does feel a lot, sometimes blame sometimes. I think it can potentially make people feel quite stuck, like this is an illness. My brain's changed. I can't do anything about this, rather than us seeing actually, we've got so much scope, you know, explaining about neuroplasticity and the wonders of you know, when we start to repeat behaviors, new behaviors, when we utilize nutrition in a way that can support our brains, it feels much more empowering. And I think people that have been stuck in in behaviors around food that feel quite disabling and debilitating for a long time, I feel like they need empowerment. They need to feel like they're in control.
Stephanie Mara 34:19
Yeah, I completely agree. I'm curious, like, I've kind of always approached that from bringing in that you have choice now, like feeling into your autonomy, and I'm wondering how you have supported others, or what you've explored to feel more of the sense of that empowerment and control for one's life and for oneself.
Rachel Hobbs 34:41
Yeah, again, I think it's about finding those small moments of bringing more safety into the body and into their everyday experience, to bring kind of, you know, the prefrontal cortex, part of the brains, on the brain online, that actually can weigh up a little bit better. These, these rational choices that we do have so they can make it from a place of safety rather than from a place of fear. And again, I think setting manageable achievable like one those 1% goals to build up a sense of self-esteem that actually I can do this, because if we've tried and tried and tried and tried and tried to restore our relationship with food for months, years, decades, we probably have a huge amount of a lack of self-confidence, a lack of self-trust. So I always think actually those teeny, tiny goals or steps outside the comfort zone are the things that can have the most difference in the end.
Stephanie Mara 35:39
Yeah, yeah. And just because I know you're passionate about neuroplasticity as well, I'm wondering if there are specific practices or awarenesses that you bring in to your private practice to lean into that neuroplasticity or cultivate awareness of it.
Rachel Hobbs 35:59
Yeah. So sometimes we use, like, a visualization of a choice point, where you're standing in the middle of a field, and you've got one way, which is the path you've always walked down. And because you've walked down, it's an easy path, you know, you don't even have to think about it. But every time you walk down it, you don't really get to the place you want to go. Whereas the other way, there's, like, lots of brambles. It looks like it's going to be really hard, but, you know, on the other side of that that there is a place that a person might see as beautiful and but actually it's going to take some work and repetition to, you know, cut those thorns down and tread them down. And whilst you're doing that, the other one is going to slowly overgrow. That's sometimes quite a nice if someone really leans into visualization to, I guess, explore that neuroplasticity in a more accessible way.
Stephanie Mara 36:50
I use a very similar example. I always like think of it as a path in the woods.
Rachel Hobbs 36:56
Ah, amazing!
Stephanie Mara 36:57
So I love that you actually described that because that is what it's like. It's like we have to bring in that compassion, that whatever food behavior you've done over and over and over and over again, it's kind of like, you know the path. It is comfortable and because it's comfortable there is safety there because you know where it goes. You know how you're going to feel. You know what to expect. But kind of at the end of that path is maybe the same, I don't know. I think of like when I go on hikes and there's no end point. Like, always love hikes that have an end point, instead of, like, a hike that just, like, never ends, like you have to decide to turn around and come back. So, like, I think of it kind of like that where there's, like, there's no end point to it, whereas when you were doing something new, it's kind of knowing that maybe there's like this beautiful open lake at the end of it with like this beautiful sky, and that it's going to support you in feeling how you want to feel in your body, but it's going to be a harder track. So I actually love that you brought it in, because I think it is a really great analogy for what neuroplasticity is like, and how we can even imagine, like, regardless of where anyone is at in their food recovery journey, it's like, Okay, I am just contained. Like you may take a few steps on the familiar path and be like, wait a second, I'm going to maybe cut over this field here and try to take the other path I've been trying to carve out instead.
Rachel Hobbs 38:28
Yeah, absolutely. I think it's just that awareness, isn't it? But sometimes we will just, you know, if our window is small, we will just, you know, go down that path. You know, being up all night with the kids, it's so much easier to go down. But then there are other things that we can do that maybe give us better tools to cut down the bushes, a new pet, you know, a new pair of plant snips, or something like that. If we're getting adequate omega-3 in, then that gives us, you know, a new tool. It becomes a bit gamified, doesn't it really?
Stephanie Mara 38:57
Yeah, absolutely. And I love that you're even bringing in the aspect of like, starting to also see food as an ally. It's really how I like to see food as well, especially when food has been seen as the thing that maybe does feel unsafe, especially if there's food trauma, and there were hard times navigating food interactions and like you're starting to name even like bringing in omega-3s that are going to help your brain function optimally, that we also get to say, Hey, can I also play with food and notice that it's not always the experience of making me feel more threat or more discomfort or more dysregulation. Food can also be an experience of more safety and more regulation and more connection, as you kind of play with like, well, what also makes me feel the way I want to feel?
Rachel Hobbs 39:44
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that is, again, about bringing that trust into the body. How do I feel after I've eaten that meal? And is that how I want to feel? Like, do I actually feel good eating this massive salad with a little bit of protein and no carbohydrates or fat? Or do I, am I eating that because I feel like that's what I've seen online, or that's what I've been told by a coach at some point, you know. And again, I'll say to people like, if you're, for example, eating low carbohydrates, of course, you're not going to feel very relaxed most of the times. Like that makes sense. And I think a little bit of education around, for example, of it, you know, supporting, like, serotonin production, crossing the blood brain barrier, those types of is really important as well. Like, also, you are eating behaviors which are obviously linked with our dysregulation experience, or regulation experience are then going to feed back into it. You know, if we are feeling on edge and that we can't eat carbohydrates. Actually, that impact of a lack of carbohydrates is going to continue us feeling on edge. And I always say kind of dysregulation begets dysregulation, unless we're able to recognize when we're on our way up or down.
Stephanie Mara 40:54
Yeah, yeah. I'm wondering if you can speak more to that. And I just want to say with a caveat of anyone who's listening that it's just like when we start talking about food, it can always ride this very fine line of like, this isn't like the right way to eat. It's just like we get to continue to approach food with curiosity and play. But I'm curious of what you've learned and experienced around that food can also help with nervous system stabilization and neuroplasticity and functioning from different parts of our brain. You know, you're starting to talk about how serotonin from carbohydrates can help us feel a little bit happier, calmer, more ease in our body. I'm wondering if you can say more about those kinds of connections.
Rachel Hobbs 41:39
Yeah, absolutely. And I think you know, going into the caveat that what you said, I think food plays different roles at different parts of our lives, and what feels best for us at one part is going to completely change at a different part, because our brain is going to be in a different place. For example, postpartum, if we're chronically stressed, those types of things, we're going to our bodies and brains and nervous systems are going to need different things. So I think recognizing that this is something that is always going to flux and change and need compassion and curiosity helps us just approach it with a little bit more ease, rather than rigidness. I think that if we wanted to think about just the basics of how we can support our nervous system from more of a nutrition perspective, thinking about like some blood glucose stabilization would help, and that just means having mixed meals, eating regularly throughout the day. You know if we are going to have foods that absolutely we enjoy, but perhaps we know might have more of a interference with our blood sugar levels to have that alongside a main mixed meal rather than a snack, in isolation. You know, making sure we're having a couple of portions of oily fish a week, and if we don't eat oily fish, that was when we might consider supplementing, you know, ensure we're getting, you know, if we're on a plant based diet, maybe again, thinking about, actually, how can we get our B-12 in to other sources? Because that's a co-factor in in those neurotransmitters that are so important for things like experiencing pleasure, experiencing motivation. So I don't think there's ever going to be a massive overhaul. I think it's those teeny, tiny things that feel manageable that we can think, Oh, actually, how can I see this as something that not only nourishes my body, because I think a lot of the times, food is just linked with body size and shape and maybe even health, but we often forget how important it is for our brain and our nervous system.
Stephanie Mara 43:33
So well said, I completely agree. I find that it's kind of shifting that attention from how might this hurt me from all that fear and all that anxiety, and like again, we get to meet that with compassion, because there is so much fear about shifting and changing bodies around how we look based off of the weight stigma that is in this world. And like you're talking about also shifting it towards how could this help me? You know, and that, like all foods, have some nutritional basis to it that could help you in some way, to get the B vitamins that you need, or to increase the serotonin in your body, or to feed the like you even started with the microbiome in our gut. About 95% of our serotonin is made in our gut, so that we can, kind of like help the production of those kinds of things. So, you know, I agree with you that it's like, yeah, sometimes we have to, like, update our body's story about food, and that this can actually be safe to interact with again. And even if you, like, need to do a Google search or, I don't know, I mean, you can certainly ask, like, chatGPT, like, you could type in like, Okay, this is what I'm eating right now. What nutrients are in this that are helping my body? Just to start to, like, shift that dialog a little bit around this is doing something for me in some way.
Rachel Hobbs 44:53
Absolutely. And I think there's also an aspect there, and I think why I've got young children, and they definitely teach me this in terms of this food is more than just nutrition. Like my little boy, he's nearly four, and he will go to the fridge and just grab, like, a whole carrot, or go to the freezer and start eating frozen fruit. And I was like, why are you doing that? And that then changed to like, Oh, why are you doing that? Like, it's obviously meeting some sort of stimulatory need. And when he started doing that, I noticed he stopped chewing on like, toys or his clothes. So actually, we can use food to support stimulationary needs as well, or to support soothing and I think that that's a really important component that we often forget that we can utilize that for and it can nourish us in that way too.
Stephanie Mara 45:45
Yeah. Oh, thank you so much for naming that. Because again, if we bring back around that shame experience that there's so much shame around actively owning the decision and the choice to choose food to meet your sensory needs, whether that is like you're needing some stimulation, or you're needing less stimulation, and it kind of helps you, like maybe dull things a little bit, or it is just like meeting some kind of emotional need that there's nothing shameful about that. Like as human beings, we also are meant to have a pleasure and connection and community around food, and so I just so appreciate you also bringing in that reminder that, like, yes, there's all these pieces about nutrition that can help us and our bodies function optimally, but we are not just robots. Our bodies are not just machines. And that, like, there's so much more to our interactions with food that we're getting out of that experience.
Rachel Hobbs 46:43
Yeah, absolutely. I think it's something. I mean, you probably experienced it in your work as well. But a lot of the individuals that I get to support, they might say things like, I feel very addicted to sugar, or I feel like I can't have sugar in the house, because if it's there, I will just eat it all up. And again, the shame word comes up. It's so shrouded in shame that it actually stops them from being able to explore. Actually, what is the underlying need for this? Like sugar's so interconnected, isn't it? In like our social events, like ice cream on the beach, birthday cake, so perhaps we are actually craving connection. You know, obviously, you know, it's not uncommon that I was a child, if I'd hurt myself, if I'd done well an exam, I would get rewarded with some sort of sugar thing. So actually, maybe if I'm craving sugar, that means it's not a physiological need, but perhaps I'm seeking love or reassurance or affirmation or something like that. There's, you know, if we've got capacity that curiosity can really, can be really healing.
Stephanie Mara 47:44
Yeah, I completely agree with that, that it's also we get to bring in so much curiosity around our food interactions and why we're wanting to eat a particular food in any moment, because that can come from so many different places. And I find that like, we keep trying to, like, simplify food as this is just like, you know, in the fitness culture, it's like, calories in, calories out, and then, like, you know, diet culture too, of like, here's the good and the bad foods. And it's like food is way more nuanced and multi-layered than we make it out to be. And so I just love all of the many pieces that you brought in today that just reveal and continue to show that this is layered, and we have to meet it with so much compassion. And I feel like I could talk to you like the rest of the afternoon but I want to be respectful of your time. So I just like, really appreciate you being here. And you know, I always like to kind of wrap up with also like a baby step that if someone is kind of on this journey in reconnecting with food in a different way, you know, You listed a lot of things today, but is there any kind of baby step that you would offer someone?
Rachel Hobbs 48:52
I think it would probably be taking that curiosity factor in terms of just pausing before we reach that shame point and thinking actually what need is this behavior, whether it's restriction, binge eating, emotion led eating. What is it trying to meet because is it physical? Is it regulatory? Is it relational? Is it emotional? Because it's always going to meet something and to acknowledge and accept and appreciate that we're human so we have needs.
Stephanie Mara 49:24
Yeah, I really love that, because it also takes away, or maybe decreases that shame that there is no wrong place to choose food from, but even if it's for a regulation, sensory purpose that you're eating food, sometimes taking that pause to own that and just name that can bring in that compassion to be like, Yeah, I want food for this reason right now, and that's not a wrong reason to choose to eat out of. So just thank you so much for naming that and bringing that in here today. And I'm wondering how listeners can keep in touch with you in the work that you're doing.
Rachel Hobbs 49:59
Of course, and my website is dietitianrachel.com, and I'm on Instagram as dietitian.RachelHobbs.
Stephanie Mara 50:06
Awesome. I will put those links in the show notes, and definitely recommend following you love what you put out. I feel like our work overlaps so much, and it was just so wonderful to connect with you today.
Rachel Hobbs 50:19
Thank you so much for inviting me on your podcast, and it's been so lovely to speak with you as well.
Stephanie Mara 50:25
Well to everyone listening as always, if you have any questions, email me at support@stephaniemara.com anytime, and I hope you all have a satiating and safety producing rest of the day. Bye!
Keep in touch with Rachel:
Website: https://www.dietitianrachel.com/