How Society Shapes Our Health Beliefs and Dieting Behaviors

Welcome to the Satiated Podcast, where we explore physical and emotional hunger, satiation and healing your relationship with your food and body. I'm your host, Stephanie Mara Fox, your Somatic Nutritional Counselor.

I'm about to complete my first year of receiving my PhD in somatic psychology. This first year has changed me, it has woken me up, it has challenged me, it has made me question things much deeper than I've ever questioned things before. I've very very slowly have been putting out more podcast episodes and posts on social media exploring the racism, oppression, marginalization, and politics that is behind why diet culture exists. I know it is a different message for me to start exploring and sharing more of and it is one that can be confronting and bring up a lot. For myself, I've joked with my husband that it kind of feels like stepping out of the matrix. To continue to focus on diet culture being the problem misses discussing that diet culture was born out of racism and paternalism and control of bodies. And, I don't want to be surface level with you here. I have always been the person at a party that found one person to have an in depth conversation with. I want to go deep here into every facet and every angle of what affects your relationship with food and your body.

There's a lot going on in our world right now when it comes to food policies and it can bring up a lot of fear of food about what to eat and what not to eat. So I wanted to have a discussion here that supports you in how to move through these times when we are going to potentially see more and more headlines that increase fear of food. I knew I needed to bring my friend, Abbie Attwood back on the podcast to have this chat. Abbie is an anti-diet, weight-inclusive provider with a masters in clinical nutrition. She is the owner of Abbie Attwood Wellness, providing both individual and group virtual nutrition therapy and body image coaching. She is also the host of the Full Plate Podcast and writes the accompanying newsletter on Substack. Abbie has lived experience with an eating disorder, which happened at the intersection of competitive running, OCD, and several chronic illnesses — all of which have made her especially passionate about working with those who don’t always see themselves in the traditional picture of disordered eating. She works with clients around the globe, supporting them in healing from disordered eating, chronic dieting, body shame, and compulsive exercising to move into a kind and respectful relationship with their body. Abbie’s approach centers on self-compassion, social justice, and body liberation. We chat about understanding health and nutrition messaging, the complexity of trusting ourselves and science, challenging the notion of control over health, distractions from systemic issues in health, the impact of socioeconomic factors on food choices, enhancing your critical thinking skills in nutrition and media, and so much more. This conversation is about raising awareness of how much your environment and the social messages you receive about food affect your interactions and sense of safety with food.

These are the kinds of conversations we get into in the Somatic Eating® Program where there is space and time to ask questions at the end of every class to deeply explore what guides your food decisions and your sense of safe embodiment. Doors are officially open to sign up and we start on May 22nd and spend 3 months together exploring the wisdom to your food behaviors and what your body is trying to tell you through your food impulses. Go to somaticeating.com to sign up today. Now, welcome Abbie!

I am thrilled to be having you back on to the podcast right now. I can't even say how excited I am to reconnect with you for everyone who's listening. I've had Abby on before, about, like, two years ago, maybe even something like that, so I can link our previous episode in the show notes for anyone who doesn't know you before we kind of dive into all of our things today. Can you share a little bit about you and like, how you got into the work that you're doing?

Abbie Attwood 04:52

Yes, but first of all, I'm honored to be back, and I'm so happy to see you. We both, like, had the biggest smiles when we came up on the video screen, and I was like, wait, I can't hear her, but then I could. So no, truly, I'm happy to be here. Thank you for having me, and it's just like wonderful to see you. And I feel like we've always had a very natural, energetic connection from the moment we met. So it felt like a calm chunk of time on my calendar today. Do you ever kind of look at your day and you're just like, okay, like, what do I got? And then I was like, oh, Stephanie. Like, that's just, like, a nice, lovely conversation.

Stephanie Mara 05:30

Yep, I feel the exact same way. And then I even noticed I was like, oh, and I don't have anything after it immediately, so I can just kind of like, relax into and, like, enjoy our conversation together.

Abbie Attwood 05:43

You can marinate in it after. I have a client after this, but like, I feel like maybe our conversation will inspire a specific client conversation. Who knows? You never know where it's gonna take you. Yeah, about me, let's see. Gosh, what should I share, Stephanie?

Stephanie Mara 05:59

Yeah, a little bit about your history of, like, I guess, why food? We were just kind of talking about both of our journeys a little bit before we started recording. I know that a lot of people here know of my own history of like, why I'm so fascinated with our relationship with food. And I think it's multi layered. And for me, it continues to just reveal different things about what it means to be human and what it means to live in a body, and so many different things. And so I'm curious about what has fascinated about you in why you continue to kind of explore a relationship with food.

Abbie Attwood 06:39

Well, I think it's always, was actually, for me about the body. For my whole life, and not so much about food until later. I had, like, a very easy relationship with food until I was probably 20 years old, which is pretty rare, I think. You know, I always like to say, like very much, probably in many ways, protected because of, you know, being in a straight size body most of my life, but most of what I experienced up until that point, until I was 20, was actually just a struggle, the struggle of having a human body, because I have multiple chronic illnesses. I grew up an athlete, and I also, and I know that you and I share a lot of similarities with this, I'm also a person who just has struggled with my mental health like most of my life, and how that impacted my embodiment, you know, and what it felt like to be in my body, in my brain. It was hard a lot of the time, you know, anxiety, panic disorder, OCD, and you layer that on top of chronic illness, and all the things that happened in your teens and 20s, of just trying to figure out what the heck you're doing and who you are, you know, and so I had a lot of hard experiences with all of that, with injuries, with illness, and a lot of that ended up funneling itself into in my kind of early in my early 20s, like right when I graduated college, I guess it was like this very quick, like tumbleweed of disordered eating that was just kind of about kind of safety and trying to figure out how to feel better in my body, like it was, you know, ostensibly about health, in quotes, for chronic illness. And that just kind of spiraled and became more restrictive very quickly. And, yeah, spiraled out of control, like, very quickly. And it was really difficult. It was really difficult to overcome. It was really difficult to heal from, like, physically, mentally, emotionally, and for a while, I kind of rejected doing anything to do with food, because I just needed to feel quote, unquote normal around it and not think about it too much as I was recovering. But then I kind of just felt this like I was working in health policy for many years. I actually lived in DC for a long time. I just kept feeling this like friction in me, of like I care about what I'm doing, but I also just feel so drawn and passionate to this other thing that I'm just seeing everywhere around me. You know, I feel like that was the time when, like, Paleo was getting really popular, and I don't know, 15 years ago or something like, a lot of the like wellness culture was really starting to bubble to the surface in diet culture. And it was really bothering me to just see it everywhere and how it was harming folks, and how I, even, you know, got pulled back in to thoughts for, you know, I would get out of them really quick, but, you know, I'd question things that I was doing. So I went back to grad school to get a Master's of Science in Nutrition, and didn't really know what I was going to do with that, except I just knew I wanted to be in relationship with people and counseling people. And I've been doing that ever since, and it has felt so good and so just aligned and authentic and meaningful. And just like you said, the layers of the onion have been peeled back over and over. I think the last like seven years or something, have just been transformative for me in how I think about this stuff and all this. The different ways that it intersects with systems of oppression, and why we feel the way we do about the bodies we inhabit, and how is nutrition messaging harming people and creating disordered eating in like this really rampant epidemic way, and seeing how that kind of coincides with politics and so many things, you know. So, yeah, it's been quite the ride, but I'm very happy. I feel like I was meant to do this. I don't know if you feel that way. Do you feel that way? I do feel like I was meant to do this.

Stephanie Mara 10:31

Yeah, absolutely. I know I share a lot here that I was a double major in theater and psychology in undergrad, and always thought that my path was theater. I really believe now that I was urged, mostly by my mother originally, to double major with psychology that, like no, the path was always psychology, like it was always needing to work with the body and to work and connect with people, in supporting people in feeling seen and understood. And I think that that does include what you're pointing to is kind of like, how do we really understand our reactions and our interactions with food, unless we kind of really start to peel back those layers to be like, why was I even drawn to diet culture to begin with? Why was this something that I found myself interacting with? Why is it that I interact with food this way? What has influenced these kinds of behaviors? And you put out a post both today and a couple weeks ago, which is what made me reach out and I was like, I have to have you back on the podcast to talk about this is just we are really living in a time right now, also where I find that because of what is politically happening around, you know, even just more talk about food dyes being the most toxic, scary thing that you could possibly put into your body, and it's like instills a lot of shame in people in their relationship with food, when maybe there was already a struggle in how do I feed myself? And I find that there are a lot of people that are celebrating of all the things that are happening, but I want to view it with a lot of curiosity and cautiousness and just raise that awareness of like, yeah, can we take a look at like, what's happening around what I feel like is even an increased in food fear.

Abbie Attwood 12:33

Yeah, it's a hard time, and it's a hard time for people who've ever struggled with their relationship with food. And honestly, like, I don't want to make a, you know, all or nothing statement, but I think a majority of people, because diet culture is ostensibly the sea we're all swimming in, like it just no one has escaped it. Like the messaging around bodies, around food, around health, all of these ideals we've been in beauty and and all and value tied up in that right, like, just the morality tied up in all those things. Like, no one has escaped that, and so a majority of people have, in some way, had a really complicated relationship with food and like, whether they've, you know, been able to interrogate it, investigate it, like, work through it, is another thing, because I think it's really hard, especially in the society we live in, but it's just really important to point that out that like this, messaging is also existing within a culture that has already made us so fearful, so shame ridden around, what our body looks like, what we eat, how we move what medical conditions we have, what it means to be healthy or unhealthy. And I'm even, like, I even have, like, an allergic reaction to the word healthy at this point, which it just points to how ridiculous this conversation has gotten, because, like, that should just be a neutral word, and yet it's loaded now, and I hear it, and I'm like, wait, we have to talk about, what do we even mean when we say health and or healthy? Because it gets lost. I just want to just validate everything you said. Like, it is just a really hard time to be living in if you've had a hard relationship with food and your body, and the fear based messaging that's coming right now politically around food and how food is being attacked, so to speak, as the centerpiece of what it means to be healthy, not food, but like specific ingredients and demonizing them, it's a very difficult environment to navigate for folks, because they're hearing all these really wild claims and they don't know who to trust.

Stephanie Mara 14:41

Yeah, what you point to in that of just not knowing who to trust is also that our environment has not often facilitated or taught how do we trust ourselves? Like, if we come back to even how you got into this journey, was like being in relationship with the body. We live in such an environment and culture where we are so disconnected and constantly being guided outside of our body and in living in disconnection from well, how do I know what is the felt sense of health in my unique body? I mean, we were even talking about that before we recorded of just like, yeah, how do I make decisions based off of my lived experience and not what I've been taught I should or should not do?

Abbie Attwood 15:26

Yeah, it's so important to bring the most self compassion to this as we can possibly muster, and not in and of itself, as a whole practice, but it's understanding why we have the reactions that we do why we're attracted to the headlines that we're attracted to. It is so much easier in many ways, to believe that there is a right and wrong way to eat, because then there is some way we can control our health. There is some way we can control the experience of having a human body. And I often say like there is no certainty in having a human body, and that requires grief, and that requires a lot of self kindness, a lot of sitting in discomfort. And as humans like we don't like uncertainty, like for many good reasons, it doesn't change the fact though, that like that uncertainty just is but for that reason, I think we have to have a lot of compassion for ourselves, of like, why it's really attractive to see a list of things that we should or shouldn't eat, because then we can believe that we're doing something, quote, unquote, right, that we're controlling something, that we're creating some safety and security for ourselves. The problem comes in when those are misguided claims that then lead to more stress and anxiety that are actually harming our well being and also distracting us from things that could help our well being. Do you know what I mean? Like, if we're super hyper focused and hyper vigilant about specific ingredients, it really snowballs pretty quickly for a lot of folks, into a lot of fear, a lot of obsession. And to your point, before, like, it fuels even more disconnection from self and inability to trust yourself. And then it leads to a lot of what we're seeing, which is distrust in science because of the confusing claims, it's hard. It's hard this, like, balance of trusting the self and trusting science. And then, you know, this, the rhetoric around do your own research as like a way to try to empower people but also disenfranchise people. It's all very muddled up and confusing. And I think that's the point. I think that confusion and fear is the point.

Stephanie Mara 17:41

Yeah, a lot of people know here that I'm currently getting my PhD in somatic psychology, and have to read, like, a lot of research papers right now. And so just to that point that you're referencing, is that okay, so someone's saying, like, well, do your research. Like, I think I saw someone ask even on your thread today, of just like, well, could you say more about, like, our seed oil? Why are seed oils, like, not actually that bad for me? Which is just an example of like, how confusing it's gotten. And so, you know, someone might say, well, really, actually read the research, but the research community does not write papers in a way that is easy to read. There is all this jargon that researchers are put to some standard that they have to write in that I'm currently learning about. And so it's like, you can even say, go read the research, but it's like that is not going and opening up a good book that you can, like, understand and be like, oh, that's actually what's really going on here. We're not actually making information accessible to even understand. Like, what does different foods do for me and what actually is happening in the body when we eat certain foods? And it's not what has been predominantly put out there by like, wellness culture. But coming back to your question of, like, we just kind of have to look that out. Like, I know, one of the questions that I had to start asking myself, even on my own recovery journey, was like, what does fearing food do for me? Like, if I actually stop looking at that, I have to heal the food fear. What is staying in fear of food doing for me? And it's giving me some kind of like you were pointing to, some kind of safety in my body. Well, if I can just figure out eating the right way, then maybe I'll finally feel safe in my body. But it was never about finding the right way to eat. It was about I don't feel safe in my body, and why don't I feel safe in my body? And can I build more safety in my body, in a world that inherently is unsafe to live in, regardless of what's even going on in the world right now, just living in a world where anything unexpectedly can happen at any point in time, or like you were saying before, that we are not actually in control of our bodies, and I find that that's a really fragile place to get to, even I've seen it in with those that I work with of having to actually, like you said, grieve that we're not in control of our bodies, and how terrifying that can feel, that like I can still get sick or unexpected things can happen regardless of how quote, unquote healthy I eat. And sometimes it's actually feels safer just to stay in food fear than to have to face all of that.

Abbie Attwood 20:20

Yeah, and listen like I get it so deeply, like I told you earlier, and I think you already knew this about me was, like chronic illness was a really big gateway to restrictive eating for me, because when you look at a lot of the rhetoric and fear mongering around specific foods is like that it will give you such and such disease, you will get sick. They love to throw around the word inflammation. We could have a whole podcast on that, like and as somebody with chronic conditions and autoimmune disease, you know when I felt like my body was no longer mine, when I couldn't get control of it, when I didn't have certainty about what was happening in my body, I really needed to grasp onto something and wellness culture was there serving me all of these kind of elimination diets on a silver platter. And that is like, not just seductive, but it can psychologically feel good for a while to be like, oh, okay, like, people don't really have answers for me. I'm taking my medications, blah, blah, blah. But like, my doctor is not telling me that there's, like, a way to get rid of this or whatever. But these people are telling me that if I eat this way and look at what they cured themselves, and they feel better. And so you start going down the rabbit hole. So I just want I say that to say, like, I really understand it, and I actually think that a lot of a like, like, highly sensitive people, but also highly intelligent people, are even more seduced by diet culture, because there's also, like, the productivity and hustle and capitalism wrapped up in it, of like, just do more, just try harder. And if you're a person who believes that you can achieve things because you're like, a person that works hard, quote, unquote, like, you're even more susceptible to that, you're like, well, I can figure this out. Surely I can figure this out. There's so many factors, personality and otherwise, but I just say that to say, like, I understand. It's really tempting, but it also makes me really angry now to think about the populations of people that are especially vulnerable to this narrative. Are the people that are coping with a lot of sickness, or illness or whatever, and what you said, like, what is fear doing for me? And I think adding another, adding on top of that too, is like, and also like, what is it doing for me to believe that I am in control of whether or not I have this disease or not? Because all that ends up doing is pushing that personal responsibility narrative that we know is so destructive because it takes our attention away from systems and policies that need to change, and instead makes us blame ourselves when we inevitably have a health condition. All of us are going to have health conditions, whether you have one now or not, you will. If you are lucky enough to continue to age on this earth, you will. I say this with so much compassion when and if you do, it is not your fault. These things are so complex, they go so much further than food, if food is even a minute component of it, and so I think that's missed, and then we end up feeling a lot of shame and self blame.

Stephanie Mara 23:33

Yeah, and you've pointed to a couple of times of just these systems that are in place that distract us. I'm curious if you could say more to what you sense is like diet culture is the distraction from the systems underneath that actually we need to be maybe paying attention to more.

Abbie Attwood 23:52

Yeah. I mean, you know what's come up for me a lot lately is just the way that the focus on, let's just take the focus on ingredients. You mentioned seed oils, which, have, you know, first of all, the term seed oils is not even a nutrition science term. I'm glad you're laughing. It was made up by the wellness industry. Like, if you ask, like, a nutrition scientist about it, they're gonna be like, what? What do you mean seed oils, you know, like, what is that term? But if you, right, like, are we talking about omega six fatty acid?Like, what are we talking about, right? Like, polyunsaturated unsaturated fats is what somebody would know, which have actually been shown in research to have a lot of benefits, like for heart health. So I think what a conversation like that does is it promotes all or nothing, black and white thinking, and that's a hallmark of disorder eating, first of all, but it distracts us from what really needs our attention. Same with the food diet conversation, and I have no issue with like, taking a look at, you know, whether something is, you know, at a something that we should, you know, continue to include in our food but what I think is then missed is like, what about access to medical care in our country? What about the exponential level of like stress and burnout that people are experiencing? What about access to food like the food deserts that are pervasive in our country, where people aren't able to access fresh food, they don't have a grocery store within a drivable distance, like you look at what what's happening politically with like environmental research and client, like rolling back funding for things that are really impacting people's health, taking away funding that is helping people afford food, food stamps or otherwise, it's a distraction, is what I mean from policies that have a chance to really fundamentally help this country and people access the care that they need, and it also overlooks things like discrimination and stigma, which are actually furthered by these personal responsibility narratives around food. A lot of this comes down to, like, how much money you have and how that correlates with health and so demonizing the food choices of people who are just trying to access food and get food that's affordable. Or, you know, we haven't even talked about like, you know, let alone, like, sensory preferences or feeding differences for people with things like arfid or neurodivergence that affects, like, just needing consistent types of foods that, oh, have, you know, polyunsaturated fats in them, like, it's just missing the mark on what's important in my mind, and all the while promoting a really disordered relationship with food for folks, so really a restrictive attitude towards food. It's kind of look around, it's consuming our media. It's consuming the headlines. It's what is focused on in the health kind of circle right now politically. And it's like, okay, but, but now what? Okay...

Stephanie Mara 27:02

Right, it's like, okay, we have less food dyes, but...

Abbie Attwood 27:06

Great. And? Like, we have much bigger fish, right? Do you know what I mean? Like, okay, I don't think that's where the meaningful impact is going to happen.

Stephanie Mara 27:20

Yeah, yeah. It almost feels like a distraction where it's like, well, that feels like too much to pay attention to over here, of how like making sure that everyone has medical care like you're pointing to, to making sure that everyone has access to food, period, regardless of what that food is, and that it perpetuates an elitist perspective of food, that it's like, oh, this is what you have to even like you were pointing to, of the diet culture kind of is like, yeah, there's something I can work towards, like very much, that,yah know, a little bit maybe that goes along with a lot of what we grew up around, of your worth is tied to what you produce. And so if you don't feel like there's anything that you feel like you're questioning your worth in the world, that it's like, well, I can be a part of diet culture, and I can do something like I can be going after this thing that I'm told is like, the way that I should live in my body and the way that I should feed, and then maybe I'll feel some sense of worth. But it also goes back to like, how do we make people feel worthy, that they deserve to be cared for in their body, regardless of having autoimmune conditions or having neurodivergent brains or whatever it is that someone is working with in their body, that it's like you deserve to be respected and to be appreciated and to be supported and have access to support. And so it all just feels like, like, if we just keep focusing on the distraction of the right or wrong things to eat or what is in our food, we never get to kind of that deeper level of, how do I even create safety to live in my body and have a safe relationship with just eating, not even with food, but just the act of eating. And that I know, a lot of the research actually shows that under eating and being underweight, whatever that means.

Abbie Attwood 29:18

Malnourished.

Stephanie Mara 29:19

Yes, malnourished, yes. That is more detrimental to the body than eating a bunch of hyper palatable foods.

Abbie Attwood 29:29

Totally. And I think we just like socially, have been sold this idea that, like, if we were to, like, draw a pie chart of what contributes to our health, diet and wellness culture would have us believe it's like a 50/50 split of exercise and food, right? Like, and honestly, those two things together constitute a really small percentage of what impacts our health and like, I'm constantly trying to talk more with folks and explain more about, like, the social determinants of health, right, let alone like genetics and how that contributes and so, like, I think that's what the systemic issues are really about. It's like, well, sure, we could focus on the tiny, tiny percentage of these things, but actually those things only matter for like, the highest income people who are already have access to absolutely everything, and they want to focus on, you know, their organic kale, sure, right? But like, are you getting enough food? Are you getting access to foods that you like to eat? Do you feel a lot of stress, anxiety and shame around food? Do you have access to grocery stores? Do you get variety because you have access to it? Or are you having to rely on things that are limiting? Or are you food insecure in many ways, right? Like there's so many things, and I do think fed is best applies across the board and like that we need to, at a baseline, feel safe to nourish ourselves, safe to eat, safe to get enough. Because only from a place of like enoughness and satisfaction can we start to make choices that genuinely and authentically feel good in our body, and start to actually like, discern what feels good in our body and take in information from like, nutrition science and awareness, if and when we're ready for that. And I really like to have a nuanced conversation about that, because I think if you do that too soon, it can impede your ability to feed yourself. And I also don't like to say it's not important. It's great to be aware of like, oh, do you need to get some more fiber? Do you need whatever, like, sure, those are great. Do you have a nutrient deficiency? Like, are you not getting enough vitamin D? I'm not saying that's not important, but I'm saying at a baseline enoughness has to happen first, whatever that looks like. And fear mongering around food when there's so many people that aren't even getting that, whether from self imposed restriction or a lack of access to food, it irritates me beyond belief.

Stephanie Mara 32:10

Yes, I actually, I have been seeing something similar in the trauma recovery world, in that a lot of individuals are trying to create a way of, here's how you eat to heal your trauma. And I just started to really start to be curious about that, because what we're also talking about is that a lot of people live in a trauma response in their body. They don't feel safe, and whether that's personally lived trauma or generational trauma, or, you know, from experiencing racism, marginalization, whatever it might be that, like many bodies are living in a trauma response of not feeling safe here. Now, someone could go and tell you how to eat, but you still don't do it. And like, then someone feels like, oh my gosh, I have the answer. Someone is telling me how to eat to decrease the trauma response in my body, and I feel like, again, that puts the onus on the person, rather than we're still not addressing that like you were just saying, this is not your fault. Like when you are living in a stress response in the sympathetic nervous system, you are naturally going to be drawn to certain foods, and your digestion is going to be shut down. It's going to be hard to digest any foods that are going to be coming in. You perceive food differently when you are living in a trauma response, where, even if you are eating the healthiest foods, you still might perceive them as dangerous to eat. Like, is this good enough for my body? And and it's still missing the mark of it's it's not about continuing to focus on nutrition. We need to shift the focus of, how do we start to really cultivate, like, a more salient sense of safety in the body? And for some bodies, that may never be possible because of the world that we live in. And we have to even break that down into like a second by second experience of like, well, am I in danger, like in this exact second moment? Because if we even broaden it out of, you know, your day, your life, that might be really difficult based on the body that you live in in this world.

Abbie Attwood 34:22

Yeah, I couldn't agree more, Stephanie. Like, it's so important, and it's important to even like, I think a lot of people gaslight themselves, like myself included, about, you know, how much stress they are under and experiencing and in the body, like, whether from prior trauma or just literally, the like, experience of living in the world right now just is so stressful, and your nervous system probably is just on alert, constantly receiving constant threats in the media, on news, in social like and then you layer that on top of that somebody, you know, that a lot of us, especially those listening to this podcast, probably living with or having experienced dieting, disordered eating, body image concerns, and you're then getting all this nutrition fear mongering, pushed at you like it is actually very hard for people to eat right now, whether it's because they're losing their appetite, their stress, they're sick, they're whatever it is, it's like they're overwhelmed by the world, and then they're receiving all these messages that prevent them from just eating accessible foods that are easy and so I just feel like we need to constantly remind ourselves, like convenient foods exist for a reason. Fortified foods exist for a reason. Processing of foods, food safety protocols, these all exist for a reason. And no more important moment than right now is it to make sure that you are not shaming yourself for reaching for the easy things, for nourishing your body, because that's a radical act of self care and self compassion, especially living in a world that would have you believe that it's better to starve like it's so important to bring that self kindness to this and recognize, like, how hard it is to be here right now. And, you know, we need we need connection. We need community more than ever. And I think a lot of this, the conversation and dialogue around these things, actually serve to kind of, like, isolate people even more. It's hard, it's hard. And, like, I think the messaging is so it's so all or nothing. It's so fear based. And those are two things that I always tell people to, like, look for as like, red flags in the media, right? Like, I think one of the best things we can all do is to just pause and breathe when we see headlines that are causing, I would say, a a sense of urgency. Like, if something makes you feel like you need to, like, throw out certain things in your cabinet like right now? Urgency, right? Fear. If, like, you're feeling fear reading something and it's a statement is quite black or white, like, this is bad. You shouldn't eat it. That's a black or white statement. Rather than saying, you know, all things at a certain level can be dangerous, you can drink too much water. Like, water is a wonderful thing. So it would be like somebody going around and just starting to tell everyone water is unsafe, just because at a certain dose, too much water is not good for the human body, and that's the same with like, like a certain vitamins. I think remembering that nutrition research is very hard to conduct. Correlation is not causation, and all or nothing claims about foods are there's typically an ulterior motive. And like Stephanie and I have already discussed, like, distraction is a big motivator. Fear is a big motivator for these conversations. So I think, yeah, like pausing and reflecting. Is this making me feel a sense of urgency? Is this making me feel scared, and is this a pretty all or nothing statement can be like three things to kind of check in with yourself and then, like, who's telling me this? And what might their motivation be?

Stephanie Mara 38:02

I was just thinking that!

Abbie Attwood 38:05

Yeah, what are some good takeaways for like, just navigating some of this stuff?

Stephanie Mara 38:10

Yeah, my brain was just going on the same pat

Abbie Attwood 38:14

Consider the source.

Stephanie Mara 38:14

Yes, exactly. And I think the thing that I was kind of thinking of in this moment is, why would someone want me to be afraid of this? And what does that do for them?

Abbie Attwood 38:25

Taking what you just said, so you said, like, why might they want me to be afraid? And I think it's interesting to say, like, do they actually have my health and well being in mind? Because if they did, like this administration, for example, why are they rolling back funding for so many essential programs that help support people in this country, right? Like, do they really care about health or do they care about pushing forth certain messages and narratives about what they're doing? But it doesn't just have to do with politics. Can be anything like influencers, like, what are they selling? You know, the influencers, I don't get botox. I have nothing against botox. But, like, think about the influencers out there that are, like, shouting about toxins in foods and then getting their botox injections and sharing their cocktail recipes and then selling you a protein powder. It's all very like, what do they have to gain from this video they just filmed, and how does that maybe conflict with their other messages? It's just thinking a littlebit like being a little more critical about motives.

Stephanie Mara 39:36

Yeah, I think that it does create more space in you, getting into a space of curiosity inside of your own body. And I know we talk a lot about that here just on the podcast, of stepping into curiosity, of why might I be drawn to this particular food or why might I be drawn to this particular food behavior, or what did that food behavior do for me so that we really want to decrease shame, judgment and guilt that you are not in isolation in your food behaviors, your food behaviors are actually influenced by so many different things. They're influenced by what's happening inside of you and also your surrounding environment as well. And so I think that you just make a very good point of just when you see headlines, or you see food suggestions, or you see people even sharing the what I eat in a day, you know, posts of things, you know, we could broaden it out to all sorts of things of just being curious about, what does this do for this person? What does this say about this person that is giving this message to me? What am I experiencing inside of myself that also informs me of internalized beliefs and internalized teachings that don't necessarily mean that they're true, that when we have a reaction, usually it's just a mirror back to ourselves of oh, where did that come from? Where did I learn that? And is that actually accurate? And do I know that to be unequivocally true? And once you start just getting into that questioning space, I think it just opens up a lot more of maybe even some parasympathetic nervous system response of safety and connection, a little bit just like, okay, even though they're trying to make me scared, can I be with this fear and use it as information if something's coming up for me, but that doesn't mean that I have to be scared of the food that they're trying to make me scared of.

Abbie Attwood 41:34

I love that, and I think like it's reminding me of like conversations I have with clients like every day, which is like bringing really gentle energy into, like, those moments where you're trying to bring some awareness around, like, why might I be feeling this way? What emotions are coming up? How do I be with this without panicking? I think something that has helped me for a long time and helps my clients, is like remembering that we are always doing our best and always trying to orient ourselves towards safetyand belonging and so like all the choices, like, I think there's a lot of like, maybe self judgment that even comes up when we have these conversations, being like, oh my god, why did I believe XYZ back then? Or do you know what I mean, like feeling guilty or feeling shame about even buying into diet culture in the first place. And and then also comes up in this experience of like, why might I be feeling or having this reaction to this headline right now, which is like, of course you are. If somebody is telling you, if some food is dangerous, like it is completely wise that your nervous system is having a reaction to that and thinking like, oh, wait, should we not eat this anymore because you're trying to protect yourself, and when you have a history of restriction and fear around food or your body, and experiencing your body like it only makes sense to have a reaction to that information and to sit with it and maybe question it and maybe toy with believing it, because you're trying to keep yourself safe, and we're just doing our best. And so if we can just bring some space and just bring some noticing and be really gentle with ourselves through that it can really, like, deflate that, like, panic balloon that happens, and just give us enough time to be like, oh, maybe I should go check and see what so and so is saying about this, you know, to, like, check other sources. And, you know, have some people that you do trust to kind of touch base with or have community. You know, my my membership community, we like talk about this stuff all the time, because it can feel really lonely out there. If you feel like you're the only one that's kind of like, oh, I don't think this is right, but now it feels like everybody else is jumping on the bandwagon. So I think community and connection is important too in all of this.

Stephanie Mara 44:01

Yeah, that's so well said. And I always like to wrap up with a baby step, but I think that was a perfect one of, you know, just starting to get into curiosity and connection of, yeah, meet every reaction with curiosity and, like, also compassion. Like you were saying that it's like, of course. I say that to those I work with a lot, that every time you have a reaction, or even after you have a food behavior, just even saying, of course, of course that happened. I may not understand why it happened right now, but of course it did, because it all makes sense why you're having the reactions that you are.

Abbie Attwood 44:35

It's so funny you said that because I, not only do I say that to clients, Stephanie, but I like do it with myself, and it sounds so hokey and cheesy, and I would have thought that 10 years ago, but now I have, like, such a great self compassion practice that doesn't feel hokey or cheesy like I will literally notice that I put my hand on my heart or on my belly, because those tend to be the places in my body where I feel stress and anxiety. I do it without even being aware of it now, because it was a skill I like built over time, even when it felt so stupid back in the day, but I noticed that I do it automatically now, like, hand on my heart, or hand on my belly, and I'm like, oh, of course. Like, yep, this makes sense. And that's it. Like that practice alone of just validating your own feelings, it is life changing. Just being like this makes sense. That's it. Like, not even taking any step further than that if you can't. I love the baby step thing. That's a great idea to wrap up with.

Stephanie Mara 45:27

Yeah, you know, I always find that there's just so many suggestions out there that it's like, if, if, every single time, you know, we can just offer a little baby step of like, hey, here's a tiny little practice you can start to play with. And I think that was a great addition, because I also do that with myself all the time, and it's transformative. I know it sounds silly, but just to say to yourself, of course, I'm having this reaction right now. You don't have to do any kind of like somatic practice or like make it more complicated than that. It's just that validation enough brings in so much safety and relaxation that it starts to shift how you're even just feeling in the moment.

Abbie Attwood 46:06

Yeah, I love that so much, I really do, and it has helped me so much because I've lived so long in a body that I just didn't trust, and so to just say to myself, this makes sense, has like, changed my world. To stop thinking that I'm like, quote, unquote crazy or whatever. It's just like, oh, yeah, okay, it's okay. This makes sense.

Stephanie Mara 46:24

Yeah. Well, how can everyone keep in touch with you and your amazingness?

Abbie Attwood 46:29

Well, thanks. My amazingness can be found on Instagram @abbieattwoodwellness, my website, Abbieattwoodwellness.com, Abbie Attwood Wellness, or Full Plate. They kind of will lead you to the same thing on Substack. And then Full Plate podcast is my podcast. So if you're a podcast listener, which you must be, you're listening, that comes out weekly on Mondays. So yeah, it's Full Plate. So I think those are the main, main places that I hang out.

Stephanie Mara 47:00

Yeah, well, I will put all those links in the show notes so people can keep in touch with you. And it was just so wonderful to connect with you again. And thank you for having this really important conversation.

Abbie Attwood 47:11

Oh, Stephanie, honestly, like you're the best, and thank you for all you do, and like the compassion you just like exude. I feel it whenever I see you, so I'm really happy to be here. Thanks for being like a little bright spot in my day.

Stephanie Mara 47:25

Well, thank you for that. Oof that hit me in the feels. Well to everyone who is listening, as always, if you have any questions about this conversation, email me at support@stephaniemara.com, you can also DM me on Instagram if you want to @_stephaniemara and I hope you all have a safety producing and satiating rest of the day. Bye!

Keep in touch with Abbie:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/abbieattwoodwellness/
Substack: https://abbieattwoodwellness.substack.com/
Website: https://www.abbieattwoodwellness.com/group-coaching
Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-full-plate-podcast-with-abbie-attwood-ms/id1607751212