What Does The Non-Linear Healing Journey From an Eating Disorder Actually Look and Feel Like?
Welcome to the Satiated Podcast where we explore physical and emotional hunger, satiation and healing your relationship with your food and body. I'm your host Stephanie Mara Fox, your Somatic Nutritional Counselor. I'm super excited to introduce you all today to Livia Shapiro. Livia is a mama, mover, writer, therapist, and longtime yoga teacher. Her radical and revealing voice helps people find their own growing edges with candor and grace in equal measure. She's the author of the Somatic Therapy Workbook, which is a practical guide for clinicians and the lay person alike to access the teachings and methods of somatic psychology and movement based healing. I have known Livia for over a decade, and I'm continuously inspired by her presence and authenticity in the world. Welcome Livia!
Livia Shapiro 00:56
Thank you.
Stephanie Mara 00:58
Yeah, I'm just thrilled to reconnect with you right now today. And, you know, I would love to get started with just hearing a little bit more about your background and how you got into somatic work and ya know your ebb and flow relationship with food that landed you here.
Livia Shapiro 01:13
I mean I've always had a relationship with movement, I grew up dancing. I was a competitive figure skater for most of my later childhood and teens and into college. And I started practicing yoga when I was 16. And at almost 39, it's still my predominant practice in my life. And I also practice various forms of ecstatic dance. But if I had to pinpoint like, practice that I study, it's called the Five Rhythms, which is a well known format, if you will. And so I've always been a mover. And I think the it became very striking to me the ways that I lived outside my body kind of became less ignorant to that. I think in my I don't know, I bet if I bet, I always sort of knew it, but it didn't have language for it. And I think when I had a, I had a relatively I would say my eating disorder was I would put it in the category on the spectrum of moderately severe. And I think that was a very weird, held bent attempt at how do I manage living in a body that I don't know if I really want to be in. So that was a big part of that process. And in terms of like, somatic psychology and becoming a somatic therapist, I mean, I was always a, I started teaching yoga when I was 19 so and I've always usually kept teaching yoga through all these years has ebbed and flowed. But I ended up at Naropa, for a degree in somatic therapy, because I wanted to be a really good yoga teacher, I didn't set out to be a somatic therapist. I set out because I thought, well, shit, like, I'm teaching all these poses, but nobody knows how to teach people. Like we don't actually know how to teach to the stuff that's coming up out of practice. And one of the things that really illuminated that, for me at the time was I was teaching yoga to folks in an outpatient eating disorders clinic, and their symptoms got worse. And I was like, "What the...???" but the reality is like, that happened to me too, it had happened to me some years before. And I didn't really understand why the movement was both so supportive, but also deeply provocative. And there wasn't enough skill set to bridge that I felt in, in the yoga industry at the time. I think it's really changed. I mean, what we're talking about in yoga in terms of the nervous system, polyvagal theory, trauma, all that, a decade ago, it was nascent how we were doing that. Yeah.
Stephanie Mara 04:09
Yeah. After that realization, what connections did you find that movement actually sometimes makes your relationship with food and body worse at first?
Livia Shapiro 04:22
I don't know if I would say that it makes it worse so much as it makes it shows you what's actually happening.
Stephanie Mara 04:28
Mmm, yeah.
Livia Shapiro 04:29
The symptoms appear worse. But the symptoms were always there. It's just the movement, in my opinion, we're talking the level of yeah, sure, the symptoms are more active. So we might say that they're getting worse, but I don't know if I would say it made the eating disorder worse so much as it just showed me what was really there. And I think that's what I saw with these women in this program. The movement that has a component of overt psychospiritual inquiry like what you are turning in when you are starting to track what it feels like, as you are a mover, you can't not tug on these other parts. I mean, our brains aren't wired to function any differently. Like, our memories, our emotions are all wound up in our movement patterns. I mean, we know this from school. So school as in Naropa...
Stephanie Mara 05:24
Side note, both Livia and I went to Naropa University to get our master's degree in somatic psychotherapy.
Livia Shapiro 05:31
So, you know, the way that our brains are wired like that, in terms of how our memories or emotions are intermingled with our movement patterns, right? You can't tug on the one string without having the other which makes it a perfect modality for healing. But it also creates the occupational hazard of it's gonna reveal your shit to you. And then what do you do? So get your lifeboat ready, right? Like you got to start working on the skills. Yeah.
Stephanie Mara 06:05
I really appreciate that reframe of, not necessarily that your behaviors get worse, but you can't be unaware of what you will become aware of as you start to get back inside of your body.
Livia Shapiro 06:17
Yeah, I was like, it makes me think of like a, you know, I'm divorced. But it made me think of like, when I first realized all of the infidelity that had happened in my marriage, I could say, oh, well, finding that out made my marriage worse. It didn't it. It was always bad. I just didn't know what the thing was. And then I found out and it's like, so you know, these things more about like, what's actually lurking under the surface. These movement practices are so revealing and clarifying. Right, then we start to really see what's in the lake of our being.
Stephanie Mara 06:51
Yeah, so what have you personally found supportive that as someone starts to maybe practice embodiment practices, dancing, yoga, movement, and that all of that intensity starts coming up, what have you found been supportive to start to flow with that intensity, maybe with a little bit more ease?
Livia Shapiro 07:12
You know, part of me Stephanie doesn't know fully. Like part of it, the real answer, is just like time, and fucking up and trying again, and falling down and getting back up. And everyday trying to cultivate some level of self talk that is loving, which finally now at, you know, moving towards 40, I think I have a handle on, like some of the practical skills that helped me, were trying to create space between my impulses and my behaviors, and starting to really understand that every impulse I had around food, I could slow it down to check out how I wanted to engage with that impulse. And I think I did learn that directly from movement practices. And I was in, you know, I had the lovely, sort of both sides of the spectrum I fell onto the anorexic spectrum, I've fallen into binge eating and binge purge cycles before. So I had to both learn to deeply nourish and be full, and then also how to manage this, like extreme reactivity, impulsivity. So there was a both there for me. And I think with movement practices, we have the opportunity to really allow ourselves to be and this is why I love dance practices, extended freeform ecstatic dance practices of like the five rhythms because we're really just tracking impulse and following our impulse. And it's like, you can be really big, you can be really small, you can be voracious, you can be whatever it needs to be, and there's the safe place to like, let that be like that, you know, that like wild animal inside of you just like be out there you know, and I think there's a time and place that we really need to have that. And for whatever reason, some of us are taking that out in our relationship to food. And some of us are taking that out in a relationship to booze, or you know, pick your poison there, right. So all of that was really about like, taking space between impulses, and just 15 breaths for it. Like one of the very practical tools that worked for me was getting in the shower. And this is like just nuts and bolts like when I got to a point, this was years and years ago, but I've gotten to a point where when I would feel the urge to there's like a binge purge impulse that would come up, I would just take a shower and just like be in the hot water and just be there until it would pass. And then when I got out I could usually like manage something much more like actually sit down and make like a reasonable meal, But, just to create some space for myself around those impulses. And then on the other side in terms of like, nourishing and not falling into that sort of demise of like, I'm gonna get super tight and rigid and controlling. I think that for me was a lot about finding where I felt safe. I think I managed a lot of control in the as I'm talking to you and really reflecting on it. I think the anorexia was a lot about feeling unsafe, and how do I control and that's how I took control. And so cultivating every way that I felt safe, so again, like somatic, like yoga makes me feel safe, you know, here's the boundaries, here's the rules. Here's a practice, like a long standing practice that has been there for me longer than any relationship I've ever had other than my relationship with myself and with my parents. So that's something you know, and the felt sense of like, what deep okayness and safety actually is in my body, like actually contacting and then living from that place, right, so that I don't have to be so rigid in these other spaces. And then I think the binge purge was about it was less about safety and, and control and more about like, can you help me? Can you help me? Can you help me? Can you help me? Which, sure is about safety. But it was more about like, Do you love me? Am I loved? Am I valuable? Am I the middle? And so creating a lot of space around that to then come back to myself. Yeah.
Stephanie Mara 11:30
Yeah. I so appreciate just the realness in all that and that this healing process is messy. There's no like definitive answer of like, okay, so you're dealing, you're dealing with this in your relationship with food, this is what you got to do. Like I remember when I was trying to create that similar space between wanting like kind of engaging in a binge was I would literally walk out my door, I would just be like, I cannot even be in my apartment right now. I just had to get out the door and would literally walk around my neighborhood for as long as I needed to. And then when I felt ready to come back, I returned back home, and something would have shifted and changed. And yeah, I agree just creating that space, where yes, the intensity of the urge is going to be there to engage in the behavior, but if you can do something in that space that feels regulating and soothing and calming, and just kind of observe how it shifts and change and it does decrease with time.
Livia Shapiro 12:32
And tolerating that discomfort. One of the things that I love is all our thoughts are real. They're just not all true. So I'd be like, real thought. True thought. Real thought. Not true thought. Real, but not true. So that helped me a lot. I mean, I think the food addiction, whether it's anorexia, bulimia, exercise, anorexia, all of the ones that fall under ED, they've, you know, they fall under that umbrella of process addictions like, so like food addiction, sex addiction, gambling, these are process addictions. I mean, you could wager there are parts of the food process, right? And you know, this or that, and I do, we're talking about like sugar. And I guess they're in caffeine, like, there is a way that we can get more chemically absorbed right in the substances. But I tend to think those process addictions are they're emotional addictions, and gambling, you could put that aside, but like, you can't live without food, and you can't live without sex. I mean, you can, but that wouldn't be very enjoyable for most people. And I don't even like using that term around I don't like these terms, food addiction and sex addiction, because they are so deeply rooted in what we need to be happy in this life, you know, and we have different satiation measures, right? Like some people have are more hungry than others, period, some people have a hungrier sex drive than others, period. And all of that is on this big spectrum, I think is okay, but we have to start to attune to like, what's our natural state? And how hungry are we for what, when, where and why, like, what is the thing that we're looking for and craving and satisfying and, and so I don't like those, even those really, those terms of things that are so innately good about us, like food is good, you know, sex is good, we should have that in our life in full measure, and how do we develop our relationship to it where like, be fucking hungry. Go for it. Don't not have it.
Stephanie Mara 14:42
Yeah, I really agree with that, you know, just I feel like we've created these labels to things to pathologize something that actually is something that's really like quote unquote, healthy and supports us in thriving as human beings and that it's a response to something like your food and body behaviors are a response to something not the problem itself.
Livia Shapiro 15:07
Yeah, that's why I say like, it's actually an emotional addiction. Yeah. It's it's not the food. It's not the sex. It's not the money. It's actually an emotional addiction. Yeah. And so like, what is it that we're really getting after? Do we have multiple avenues for regulation? Right, like, that's another piece with it, I think, too, is if we only have a very limited amount of choices to soothe ourselves, Well, if those choices aren't available, we're shit out a lot. Having a full spectrum life where we can, we're talking about self regulation, and coregulation, and support of nature, like, sometimes food is regulating.
Stephanie Mara 15:53
Yeah, absolutely.
Livia Shapiro 15:54
That's the thing that I think it's tricky, right. And same thing with like, intimacy and sex and things like that. Right. Like, sometimes like that is just the medicine you need. That is the regulating thing. So what's the emotional piece that's, that's under it? Right? Whole thing with food and diet culture and, you know, like, that's, I think, far away from the thing that's actually going on.
Stephanie Mara 16:19
Yeah, these are really excellent points that I like to normalize, never take food off of your list of regulating acts. It has to stay on there, it has to be one of them. Because as soon as you take it off, one is going to be the only one you want to choose. And two, you're going to feel a lot of shame and judgment, when you do want to choose that as one of your many choices. And if you've taken it off, then there's this kind of like shame cycle that gets set up of oh, why is that the thing that I chose, where sometimes if we just say that's one of your many choices, it's allowed to be, it gets to be, you know, then there's just a lot of acceptance and ownership when you just choose, okay, I'm choosing food to satiate an emotional hunger, that's okay, I'm doing it and I can just move on with my life now.
Livia Shapiro 17:05
And, you know, like, for me, another big part of the process for me has been like, I love food. I grew up in a food family, like, like, my family was in the food business. And my family is deeply oriented around food. And it's interesting now, like, my life is deeply oriented around food, growing food, where do I source my food, like, what farmer did I talk to, cooking it for people that I love, bringing it to people that I love, sharing it, like there's a deep, deep nourishment that I have created, like this thing that was very, like, tenuous in my life, this thing that was very triggering this thing that was very confusing. This thing and place where I took out all of my stuff, I actually and I feel very proud of it, quite frankly, my life, I've really turned it into this thing that is whatever the opposite of shame is, is like that is my relationship to food now like a deep, harmonious peace around it. And like, don't get me wrong, a woman living in a culture that tells me I should be many different things. So like, I still sometimes I'm like, oh I don't know and this should be different and that should be blah blah blah. But like, that's not the dominant way I feel. And I think also raising a young girl in the world, you know, I don't want things to be off limits for her. I want there to be this deep reverence for nourishment and for food and cultivating a home life that is sweet around the relationship to food. It's not meant to be used against us, that it is the pathway for connection. And I think that was like probably the biggest change for me is that I actually my relationship to food, I utilized as a weapon against myself for a long time. And then along the way, I took that sword, that knife, that weapon, however you want to say it and I feel like I really just laid it down and transformed it into something much more life giving.
Stephanie Mara 19:10
And you mentioned before we started this call today that stepping into motherhood really kind of healed and changed your relationship with food. And I'd love to hear more about that transition for you. Just because I know a lot of parents, you know, are here listening to this. And I think that the process of stepping into being a parent can absolutely change your relationship with food when you're also like nourishing another little being in this world too.
Livia Shapiro 19:39
Yeah. So, you know, when I was pregnant, I hated being pregnant. I did not, I did not enjoy being pregnant. I had a difficult pregnancy in that I was one of the people who had basically sit for like seven months, so I had a new appreciation for what I could and couldn't eat. I mean, I basically ate like shmooshed beans on toast, and like some romaine lettuce for like seven months. Just horrible. So I had this sort of this hard stop of like what I could and couldn't eat. And it was, like scary for me. And then at the very end of my pregnancy, you know, my, my tastes changed a lot. And like I finally, it was frustrating, because like I was finally really hungry, but I also couldn't eat a lot at one time, which also brought up a lot for me because I really wanted to be able to like sit down and have a big meal, I didn't like that I was like these little increments and like my tastebuds kind of changed a bit, I couldn't have really spicy food, and I also had food sensitivities that went away, like my previous dairy sensitivity completely went away when I was pregnant, which was super fun. So I think I just developed this thing of like, there were so many ways in which I couldn't do a lot that I was just like fuck it, like, I just like, is there anything that like I can eat that feels good. And then when after my daughter was born, I had this like voracious hunger that was like unstoppable really. And there was no room because of nursing between like, Okay, I should probably eat soon, I may be getting a little hungry, okay, should like, you know, move towards making dinner, it was like, all of a sudden, I would be like, I wasn't hungry before. And then all of a sudden, it was like, if you didn't put a burger in front of me, I was gonna just rip your head off, like I would I would be shaking. Like I had a lot of blood sugar stuff going on, and hormonal stuff going on. And you know, I was nursing, I nursed my daughter till she was two and nine months, and I had massive, like thyroid and hormonal changes. And so like, even at night, I mean, I would be like to drenched in sweat, I would wake up feeling like I have run literally was like, in a pool of sweat. This was for months. And I would wake up so hungry as if I ran a marathon like, Oh my God. And so I got to like there was this way in which I did not give a fuck about what I was eating so much in terms of like food sensitivities and like I didn't eat dairy and I didn't eat soy, and I didn't eat gluten and all these things. So and then I also had a lot of issues with breastfeeding with like clot, like inflammation and clogged ducts. So then I had to do like a very low inflammatory diet to support that. Otherwise I would get like, so much pain. So I had to really be like, I cannot, I literally cannot survive and feed this baby if I don't really manage this. So it became all about like, a very deep relationship to like how healthy and nourished can I be for me and for this human being. And then of course, you know, being a mom. So that kind of flushed out any of the sort of last remnants that I carried, I'd like to put myself in the category of having been well on the healing path in the world of ED, that sort of maddening world for years before I got pregnant, but in a very earnest way. But I think these sort of like shadowy vestiges, like the deep hiding places really got flushed out in that postpartum time for me, which was like a delight. It was like, I was so grateful that that was being like, moved. And the other really big thing, Stephanie, that happened for me is that I just stopped caring, like, my life was so full and so busy, and I was so needed by my daughter, that I was like, my disordered eating, that neurosis is not interesting. It's not interesting. It's just not catching. It's not catching my attention. Doesn't feel worthwhile, that part of my neurotic self feels stale, uninteresting, and I don't want to give it any more attention, not because I hate it not because I just don't love it, because it's boring. Like, it just got boring to be in that identity. Honestly, I was just like, I'm done. I'm just like really done with being in that identity. And I'm saying it in kind of like a, like a really firm, almost harsh way now. But it's not coming from a harsh place. I mean it sincerely like I just was done. I just was really bored with myself. And I was like, there's got to be so much more. And there's more I could say about that. And like the evolution of where I'm at now, too. And like there's this whole piece that I discovered more recently around food sensitivities and being in unsafe relational spaces. And now that I'm not in those spaces, oh, well, lo and behold, I don't have those sensitivities anymore. So that's interesting, but there's definitely this combination of like deeply needing to be well and nourished and and this combination of like, that neurotic part is so boring now.
Stephanie Mara 24:59
Yeah. I really hear you pointing out that sometimes it is about the food. And sometimes it really, really, really isn't. And that it's about the the state and the place that we are in our life. And that if we feel safe and thriving and in safe environment and with safe people, then our relationship with food is really going to change. And if we are not in those environments, that our relationship with food can kind of be information for, ooh, how am I processing these other areas of my life through how I'm relating with my body and how my body's able to digest different foods, but it's not necessarily about the food itself.
Livia Shapiro 25:39
Yeah. And our bodies change over time, too. Like, I've definitely noticed that when I left my marriage, some of my food sensitivities started to shift significantly. The question that I asked, I had been asking myself in the past, like, two years really, it's like, is that true now? It was true then, is it true now? And I'm also really interested in like, I think when I was younger, I had an intellectual understanding of pleasure and an intellectual understanding of power and an intellectual understanding of presence. I call them the three P's: presence, power and pleasure. And now I have like an embodied sense of them, or I want to live a life that is filled to the brim with pleasure, whether that's the relationships I'm in, the flowers I keep in my house, the food I cook or choose to eat, you know, and I'm not talking about like, eating cream pie every day. It's a much more rich and deeper, like intuitive place, but things that are just that feel really good, that feel just right for the moment. To do that, we have to cultivate a lot of presence. And I think the somatic work, right, is cultivating our ability so somatic work cultivates our ability to tolerate pleasure. A lot of people can't tolerate pleasure, or that's the only thing they can tolerate. Right? It can't tolerate discomfort. So I think the somatic, and you're nodding a lot, that the somatic work definitely flushes out our capacity to be with pleasure, and it refines it. And I think it definitely refines our presence in our body and relationally. And I think it makes us more powerful.
Stephanie Mara 27:21
Yeah, I agree with all of that. Like you said, I'm nodding my head a lot. First, I think that question of it was true then, but it's not true now, I think that that is such a powerful or just asking yourself, is it true now, is such a powerful question to pose to yourself, because sometimes we're comparing ourselves to maybe our happiest times of the past, but that's not who we are now anymore, and what is maybe going to bring us joy, or support us in thriving is going to be really, really different. And just bringing in, yeah, a lot of that curiosity. And I agree that sometimes our relationship with food is supporting us in the only place that we feel safe, feeling pleasure, and it's supporting ourselves in actually feeling kind of joyful and vibrant in other areas of our life. And other times, I completely agree that it's, it's taking us away from discomfort. So you really kind of get to, for those who are listening, sit with yourself of Ooh, like, does it feel more comfortable to sit with discomfort or to sit with joy? And it's different for every single person because our relationship with food can support us either way. And I do want to kind of bring in a note of, I'm curious how your book and all the practices in there might support someone who's starting to adventure on this path.
Livia Shapiro 28:48
Yeah, thanks for bringing it to that. All the practices in the book, it's not, I don't explicitly explain it this way, but since we're on this thread now, I think it feeds, ya know pun intended there, the ability to be with our relationship to pleasure, be with our relationship to power, be with presence, like how do we cultivate presence, right? And presence as like the highroad of presence is embodiment and fully in myself, and I'm aware of myself as I'm doing myself and being myself and moving as myself and moving from self consciousness to consciousness of self. And then that the antithesis of presence and enlightenment is dissociation, right, splitting off, fragmenting out, being somewhere else, right, not being aware of and living from that place of where the instinctual body meets the like self aware body. So all the practices in there are about flushing out, deepening, supporting, cultivating, finding those places, and that looks like various movement practices, that looks like resourcing ourselves from traumatic spaces, it looks like how to have difficult conversations with people, understanding your body, it looks like moving through difficult emotions of any kind, literally physically in our body. It looks like some movement repatterning, like early developmental patterns. So the book really traverses all of that.
Stephanie Mara 30:21
Yeah, I love just the arc that you're presenting both within what you've shared about your journey, and within the book that this is a journey, you know, it's not a, okay, I'm gonna heal my relationship with food. And then I'm going to be done with that. You know, I think that there are, and I experienced this on my own healing path as well in my relationship with food, that there's a lot of layers, where it's like, okay, you heal your relationship, maybe with the actual food piece, and you're eating consistently again, and all of that is great. But then there's this next layer of, Oh, why did that come in to begin with, and then you have to address that layer. And then there's a layer underneath that. And so I really hear just for you, in all of the transitions in your life, there was just layer by layer of healing. And that kind of your, your book goes through that as well. Because even you know, you might get curious of well, how is having smooth conversations have anything to do with my relationship with food? Well, you know, sometimes we're using food to stuff down our voice. And so yeah, learning just the skill of how do I have tough conversations can also lend itself to healing your relationship with food as well, because then food doesn't have to come in to navigate that discomfort.
Livia Shapiro 31:33
Yeah, we can show up like less armored or something. Yeah.
Stephanie Mara 31:37
Well, I so appreciate you sharing all of your wisdom today. And I would love for you to share of how listeners can find you, keep in touch with you and your offerings in the world.
Livia Shapiro 31:48
Sure. Well the book, The Somatic Therapy Workbook is available in all bookstores, you know, the local bookstores have it. And it's very available on Amazon, it's easy to get and then I'm shamelessly available on the internet, people can find me on Instagram very easily just @Liviashapiro and my website is ecstaticunfoldment.com. And there's ways to work with me privately and ways to attend movement classes. And then there's a, I do this really sweet book club style course with the workbook. I usually run it twice a year. So that's starting up end of March, beginning of April. And it's a really sweet way to get involved in the work. We've run it a couple of times. And it's been really, people seem to have really liked it and gotten a lot out of it. So that's up there. And those are really probably the main the main spots. Yeah.
Stephanie Mara 32:44
Awesome. Well, I'll put all of these links in the show notes. And, yeah, I mean, healing happens in community. And so you know, definitely check out Livia's work. And if you have any questions about anything that we explored today, you know, please reach out anytime. I will put both of our contacts in the show notes and thanks for tuning in this week and I'll touch base with you all again real soon. Bye!
Keep in touch with Livia here:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/liviashapiro/
Website: http://ecstaticunfoldment.com/