I Can't Stop Binge Eating! Help! How To Step Into the Messy Creative Healing Process from Binge Eating
Welcome to the Satiated Podcast where we explore physical and emotional hunger, satiation and healing your relationship with your food and body. I'm your host Stephanie Mara Fox, your Somatic Nutritional Counselor. This is going to be an amazing conversation today with Sarah Dosanjh. After struggling with binge eating disorder and episodes of bulimia for more than a decade, she has gone on to specialize in helping others recover from binge eating. Sarah is a psychotherapist and author of the best selling book, I Can't Stop Eating. Sarah trained in transactional analysis psychotherapy and completed her eating disorder practitioner training at the National Center for Eating Disorders, and is an accredited member of the British Association for Counselling and Psychotherapy. She is also the co-host of the Life After Diets podcast and has a popular channel on YouTube, The Binge Eating Therapist. Welcome, Sarah!
Sarah Dosanjh 01:03
Thank you very much, Stephanie. Thank you for that introduction.
Stephanie Mara 01:06
Yeah, I'm so excited to dive in with you today. And I think a great place for us to probably start just so that we all have similar language, understanding that we're using is how have you defined to the difference between binge eating and overeating? Because I think a lot of individuals are often confused on what the difference is between those two behaviors.
Sarah Dosanjh 01:29
So first of all, one thing I always say on this subject is that everybody over eats sometimes.
Stephanie Mara 01:36
Yes.
Sarah Dosanjh 01:36
Everyone. People who don't struggle with food, who have a really comfortable relationship with food will sometimes eat more than they're comfortable with. And they might regret their food choice. So binge eating takes it to another level because it is eating normally quite a lot of food in one go. But the most distressing part is that it feels like you've completely lost control, it feels like you have no control over what or how much you're eating. So it's a compulsion. So I would use the term binge eating and compulsive eating interchangeably.
Stephanie Mara 02:10
Yeah, that's such a great identification of everybody over eats. I even like to also often add on that everybody even emotionally eats at times that you know, this is a part of normal eating. And when we're talking about binge eating its often this isolated, very intense compulsive experience that feels like you just have to do it.
Sarah Dosanjh 02:35
And even like something, let's take depression, for example, you can have clinical diagnoseable depression at one end of the spectrum. And then at the other end of the spectrum, it can be you have experienced depression at one point or another. And it's the same with binge eating, it exists on a whole scale from maybe just occasionally having these episodes to it's taking over your life. It's day in day out. And now it's an eating disorder for you.
Stephanie Mara 03:01
Yeah, and I know that when individuals are navigating patterns of binge eating, it feels really hard to stop. And so I'm wondering what you discovered on your journey and those that you work with was kind of the tools that were the most supportive that helped begin to diminish this behavior in its frequency.
Sarah Dosanjh 03:22
I think, to begin with, everybody tries to stop binge eating, by trying to stop binge eating. Like, the brain can convince you, you've been struggling with this problem for years, but in one day, you can turn it around. So the amount of times I swore I was never going to do it again. And I actually had a pretty unpleasant experience the first round of therapy I did, I did CBT therapist, therapy. And the therapist I saw her for seven or eight weeks. And I think it was on the seventh week, I had done everything I was told Stephanie, I was like the client that was compliant. And anything she told me to do. I did because I was so desperate to find my way out. But after seven weeks, my binge eating hadn't reduced. And when I left the session that day, as I was walking out the door, she said to me, "Sarah, I really want you to try this week." Oh that like curtain of shame, even now, when I say, I've shared the story quite a few times in various places, I can still feel it how that felt when she said that at the time. And I took that with me for years that I thought the reason I wasn't recovering was because I wasn't trying hard enough. I just felt like I kept failing, kept trying, kept failing. So I think one of the things that gets really misunderstood about binge eating is that people might think it's about a lack of willpower or a lack of discipline. And it's not that you can't just decide. You'll know if binge eating is a problem for you, because actually what you tend to find is the harder you try to just stop, the worse it gets. So I think some of the things that worked for me, well to begin with, I was confused because we know we see over and over again that restriction could often be linked with binge eating, if you're restricting or depriving yourself, you can end up binging. And whilst I'd heard this around, I didn't think it was me because I was never very good at restriction. I mean, a lot of people struggling with binge eating, who they quote unquote good at diets, they can follow the diet for a while. But that wasn't me. So I assumed that that didn't apply to me. And it was when I got to the point, and I don't even remember if I heard it somewhere or if I realized it for myself, but I thought, Oh, just planning to restrict was enough for me to trigger binge eating. Think about it. Every night, I was putting my head on my pillow after binging and making all these promises to myself about how I was going to eat the following day. And it was always very little food, very specific type of food as well. So if you are going on holiday, for example, tomorrow, Stephanie, you could think about it today and feel excited, like you could have that excited feeling in your body. And I think it's the same with that planning to restrict always planning to go on a diet, I think, I think it's very likely we're having these biological responses as our brains are anticipating restriction. So it's in the cycle over and over again. So I found that once I let go of the restriction part, and that was a lot of that was tough, because moving in and out of that, and letting go of pursuing the weight loss that I so desired. But once I did let go of the restriction part, my binges really decreased in their intensity. But I still had a bit of a tricky relationship with food, there was still a lot of emotional eating going on. And, you know, as you said, we all emotionally eat sometimes, and I, I think it's really important not to demonize emotional eating. But for me, at that time, it had got to the point where it was so much it was becoming the main way of trying to manage my mood. And that was becoming problematic, because it was actually having a negative impact on me now, because of the amount I was eating. So then that became a lot of work around undoing the black and white, all or nothing thinking, giving myself permission to have all my feelings connecting with my body and how I experienced the emotions in my body. Lots of surrender. I'd love to give this sort of perfect plan out to say to people do these four steps, and then you can never binge again. But it's it's a messy journey. And it involved a lot of diving deep, shall we say?
Stephanie Mara 07:29
Yeah, I love that you're normalizing that. It's especially when it comes to healing your relationship with food, it's not this linear, just do these steps, and you will get the most perfect satiating relationship with food that you're looking for. I even find that on this journey it's normalizing that when you have those impulses, because it's not necessarily that those impulses just magically disappear, to go reach for food to self soothe, it's learning also how to sit with them, and normalize that those impulses aren't just, they're gonna keep showing up. And that you get to actually learn from them. Like even when you said that therapist said to you, like you, Oh, like, my eyes started even tear up a little bit that someone said that to you. Because this journey is so not about willpower, or trying hard enough. It's so much bigger than that.
Sarah Dosanjh 08:26
Couldn't agree more. On the emotional eating side of things, I think, for me, it was drawing that line between what was soothing, and what was numbing. I had to stop the numbing, because that was hurting me longer in the long run. Because the numbing was, for me, it was about just wanting to almost obliterate myself and just escape and shut down and check out of life and, and all of those things. And that feels very different to me to, you've had a long day and you want to kick up and you want to relax, and you want to eat something really delicious. And you just want to have that enjoyable experience. And figuring out the difference between the two only happened through trial and error, and they feel different in my body. So that desire to numb or to escape would be experienced as a very intense, sudden urge to binge and I'd want to eat quick and I'd want to eat a lot where it's me emotionally eating, if I'm eating something because I want to enjoy the experience of eating it, I actually want to elongate the experience and make it longer. So if I wanted chocolate, for example, rather than getting a chocolate bar, I would rather have a bag of Maltesers because I can elongate the experience of that. And that's how I can tell the difference.
Stephanie Mara 09:37
Yeah. Yeah. Something that it's Oh, is this me moving further away from myself and checking out or is this actually bringing me closer into connection with myself and inside? And I love that distinction. I think it's really important because you might even as you're healing be eating the same kinds of foods in a different energetic state, that it's just like, oh, let me get really curious what is present in my body? Because that is shaping that eating experience.
Sarah Dosanjh 10:11
Yeah, yeah. And trying to work with myself, I think. Because when you want to numb and escape yourself, for me anyway, it was because I had, I couldn't just sit down and watch TV because I'd have a voice in my head going, you really should be doing this, and you haven't done that, and why haven't you done this, and you didn't do a very good job of that, all the time. And the escape part was about trying to shut that voice up, there was something about the, you know, focus on a screen and eating at the same time that was able to create that. And so what I found is when I just took a bit of pressure off myself, and practice a bit more compassion and acceptance, and rather than thinking, so I thought, Stephanie, I always thought that my, my goal in life was to figure out how to be a steady Eddy kind of person, because I'm always at 100 miles an hour or zero. Like I'm a sprinter. I'm not a marathoner. And I, and it's frustrating, because when you're a sprinter, you have times where you just want to collapse and do nothing. And I was feeling bad about that all the time. When I accepted that part of myself, rather than fight it. It actually, that's still my temperament to be a bit more all or nothing, but it became more manageable through actually accepting it in the first place, because it wasn't in this conflict and this battle.
Stephanie Mara 11:27
Yeah, I'm really hearing that actually, what was playing out in your relationship with food ended up being a mirror for just who you are in yourself. And going back to that, what you said earlier of the more that you actually think about trying to stop binge eating, the worse it gets. And that of the more that you actually think about trying to stop binge eating, the worse it gets. And that actually, it starts with paying less attention to that you're doing this thing, and why is it happening to begin with, and there was this piece of you being like, I need to accept that this is a part of my personality. And then when that got to happen, I'm guessing, like more relaxation got to come online, that, you know, binge eating, maybe started to decrease all on its own without even paying attention to it.
Sarah Dosanjh 12:10
Yeah, we're very good at seeing what the problem is, the thing we want to get rid of, and it's what's the thing instead, I'll often ask my clients, I'll say to them quite early on, what do you want your relationship with food to look like? And they'll say something like, Well, I just want to stop binging. Okay, that's what you don't want. What would you like it to look like? And they'll go, Well, I just don't want to be feeling guilty all the time. I'm like, again, that's what you don't want, what would you and it's, I think I have a bit of fun with it, really, because it's like, the brain just grinds to a halt. Because suddenly it doesn't know. It's been so fixated on fixing and getting rid of that there's, you know, we don't know what we're trying to create. So I often talk about recovery as a creative process. What is it you're trying to create for yourself instead, because when you start doing the work, and you think I want to tackle this binge eating problem I have, there's part of you that's fearing a loss, because the binge eating is probably doing something for you. But if you can view it as a creative process of trying to create something for yourself, that's incompatible with binge eating, rather than fighting with the binge eating, I think you're more likely to get into that balanced, more comfortable place with food.
Stephanie Mara 13:23
Yeah, and I'm laughing because I'm like, Oh, I was so there, too. I was like, when I was healing my relationship with food, all I would also focus on is like, what needs to be fixed. And I think that's such a beautiful reframe of when you're in that process of healing, starting to shift the attention of well, what do I want to bring in? What kind of relationship do I want to build and create for myself? I love that. Because then it goes into a place of just like you said, creativity and creation. And that brings in the relaxation response, which sometimes that food behavior is coming in because of feeling tight or tense or contracted or stressed out.
Sarah Dosanjh 14:05
Yeah. And so anyone listening to this, you might be in a dark place with food and might feel like they're so far away from where they want to be. I think the other thing that our minds might do that's not helpful, is think I've got, this is going to be so much work, right? That this whole process is going to be work, it's going to be work and there's so much to do, and it's going to be this long, uncomfortable slog. And I just want to open up the possibility that even the process itself could be an enjoyable one. It could be a process of discovering, getting back in touch with parts of yourself that have been long neglected and realizing things that you actually want and like that you haven't given yourself permission to want and like, so I think this can be a really enjoyable journey. Even though you know, the problem itself. I get it. It's so painful and distressing.
Stephanie Mara 14:53
Yeah, so when binge eating behaviors are playing out, like you said before, it feels very compulsive. And so I'm wondering if there is something that you teach that's kind of, and I know we talked about before, it's hard to put this into steps. But if there's like a, I like to break things down in like bite sized baby steps of like, what's something that someone could just start practicing at the beginning that might ease their process of starting to bring more curiosity around their binge eating, maybe start to even experience the binge eating in a different manner. Sometimes it's still doing the binge eating, but more embodied. So I'm curious, what kind of you where you would start someone?
Sarah Dosanjh 15:34
Yeah. So to start with, I'm a big fan of connection, because I think people really struggle to find compassion for themselves when it comes to this problem. But it's, it tends to be easier to find compassion for someone else, right. So most of the work I do now is in groups. And what happens in the groups is that people are able to feel compassion for other people who are struggling with the same thing as them and they've just done a behavior that they also do, and they can feel that compassion for someone else. And it doesn't happen immediately. But the group starts at like a bit of a mirror to one another. And what the compassion and the connection part does, is it helps to reduce the shame. We can't change from a place of shame. But it's also really difficult to even observe ourselves, when we're in that place of shame. Because we've got our blind spots for a reason, you know, the mind will put things into blind spots a lot of the time, because it's worried that if you see it, you're gonna feel shame. So it's the person, I think most people have got someone like this in their life, someone in their life, who declares that they're not a judgmental person. And you're thinking you're actually like, the most judgmental person I know, out of everyone I know, right? It's in their blind spot. Because if they acknowledge that part of themselves, they would feel shame. So until we are able to start reducing the shame, it's hard to actually watch what's going on. Because it feels like when you're in it, it just feels like this turmoil, or this whole confusing mess. And the only solution, the only answer you can come to is well, I just must be, there must be something really defective and really wrong with me, because that's what shame tells us, it tells us. So that commitment to trying to introduce that curiosity helps with shame as well, because we're just being curious, just trying to see things here. And so I do often encourage, and I was really resistant to it, because I just, maybe I'm just a bit rebellious, but to do a bit of journaling. And it doesn't even have to be like sitting down at the end of the day and journaling your day, I think quite often it's more effective to just keep checking in and just put a couple of sentences down. Because when I'm working with someone, when they're talking to me in a session, they're in a very different state than the state they're in either just before they binge, or during a binge or after a binge. So they can't access that part of them in the session. And that's why this curiosity, that compassion, ideally, some connection, and even if you're not coming to a group or something like that there are even things like these sorts of podcasts and other resources out there hearing other people talking about it can help you feel less alone. And that can do a similar job, I think. So I would say it's noticing first, getting curious, before you put that pressure on yourself to even change anything. We want to rush into changing our behavior, rather than getting curious about actually, what are the thoughts and the emotions that are behind this behavior. We just think we can just decide to act differently. And over and over again, we're not managing to do that.
Stephanie Mara 18:39
Yeah, it takes time. And what I'm hearing is putting into place little things actually in your day that makes such a difference that invite in that connection, that curiosity while the behavior is still happening, so that those things might start to have an effect on the behavior. But actually, the more that you decentralize, like de-focus on that you are binge eating, then you get to create space for what actually needs your attention.
Sarah Dosanjh 19:10
Yeah, and often the part that binges, you hate that part of you, you don't want it to exist. Ideally, what you've been trying to do is to destroy that part of you. But it's a part of you, and then you become even more split from it. So I think in the noticing and that trying to welcome in, and if you can reframe it and start to see like the binge eating is trying to perform a function, whether actually is or whether it's become maladaptive, like, who knows, but it came up out of a way to try and certainly to try and protect you if you're restricting. Maybe to try and help you emotionally feel safe and better if you're using it in a more emotional way. Trauma can be another one that can trigger off binge eating, and that really is about trying to feel safe with food. Then you can have a little bit of compassion for the part of you that binges and you're much more likely to see things with more clarity and it reduces the catastrophization of the binge when you take that approach. And I think for most everyone wants to stop their binge eating at the binge, like I want to stop binge eating by not having the binge and we see binge eating as a cycle, how you react and respond to yourself and talk to yourself after the binge is part of what sets you up for the next binge. And a lot of the time, it's, it's easy, we have more of our thinking available to us after the binge, when we're not fighting with ourselves. So how we treat ourselves what we say about what we're doing next. I think we've got to be really careful with ourselves there, but so that we're not going round and round continually triggering off that binge eating.
Stephanie Mara 20:46
I completely agree with that, that sometimes it's actually the practice gets to be okay, I just engaged in my food behavior and now how do I not self abandon and show up for myself now. And I think some of the things that you're even talking about of what to do even before can also happen even afterwards, of journal, listen to a podcast, reach out for support, you know, find someone you can talk to so that you bring in that compassion online of you didn't do anything wrong in that moment, you probably weren't even online enough to even know that it was happening until after it was over.
Sarah Dosanjh 21:26
Yeah, I was talking to some physicians a couple of days ago. And one of the physicians he's like, I think it's like a type of seizure. Never heard that word used before. But I said, I'll think about it, but it can feel like something switches off people, sometimes they say they feel dissociated. And then there are various types of binges, as well as the really intense big ones that tend to feel more dissociative, but they can be also smaller and less intense ones where you feel a bit present, if not quite. But in the moment, if you get once the urge to binge strikes, and you start arguing with that urge, and you're going backward and forward. I think what's often happening in the moment is that your brain looks at this problem and goes well, like we've got a binge here, because in theory, this debate could go on forever. If we don't binge, and then you binge. And finally, you've got the relief of that argument that was going on before the binge as well. And I think that's another trick that the mind plays in the moment, it will convince you that this is gonna go on forever, you have to do this, you have to binge in order to feel okay. And then afterwards, you're confused, because you're not in that debate anymore. And thinking why on earth did I? Why did I do that again? Or, something more unkind than that.
Stephanie Mara 22:43
Yeah, yeah. Is there anything that you have found beneficial to ask the part that wants to binge, you know, because you're really identifying this as a part of you. And we actually get to start to befriend that part of you not continue to push them away, like, I'm not going to listen to you, because then they're still functioning in the background, you're just maybe not hearing them as much. And so I'm curious, is there things that you have found talking or to that part of that person or asking certain questions that have facilitated starting to deepen into relationship with that part?
Sarah Dosanjh 23:18
Yeah, yeah. One of the questions that really helped me actually, was I started asking myself in those moments, what happens if I don't, and to see what my brain threw up, and sometimes when the binge was more of a habitual binge, because there's a habit element to binge eating as well, that can be part of it. And when it was more of a habit, that would, something would just fall away just with that question. And other times, it wouldn't, other times it would be like a much more visceral, I don't care what happens anyway, I'm just gonna go ahead and do it. And I think sometimes when you're so far in it, and it's got you, it's almost like you go through it, you binge and you come out the other side. And then you stop and you assess. Another question that I think can be handy, particularly after you binge, and you're in that beating yourself up place, is to ask yourself the question, what is the kindest way of looking at this, that still feels true? And the second part is important because people think that self kindness or compassion is just saying, It's okay, doesn't matter. Everything's gonna be fine. And in that moment, that doesn't feel true at all. In the moment, you're thinking, I'm never gonna get out of this. I'm a complete failure. I'm disgusting. I'm all these things that go on. But the middle ground often looks something like I binged again, and I'm feeling disappointed. And I'm feeling lost with this stuff. And I'm still trying to figure it out. And most people when I offer that to them they'll go, well, yeah, that that actually would feel true. And that's not saying everything's okay. It's acknowledging the hard feelings after the binge as well. And compassion and self kindness isn't about not acknowledging those feelings. So I think that's another question that I think is helpful. Another thing that I did, again, its only if you can create that gap, because sometimes when the urge is upon you, it's really hard to create that moment to ask questions. And so, again, I urge people to be kind to themselves about it afterwards, if they feel like they keep missing the moment. I think sometimes anticipating when a binge is going to come, so let's say your binge always starts at six o'clock after work. Rather than waiting until the urge is upon you to investigate it, like, can you get out ahead of the urge and anticipate it. So you're sitting there at 5:55, pen and paper going like, right, what's going on, and that moving towards it. I talk about it as trying to create a different relationship with this urge to binge, because if you need the urge to binge to completely vanish, in order for you to recover, it's like you're always at the mercy if they decide to return. And so being able to handle binges, and for me, again, there's a lot of this surrender that went on, or sometimes I would just lay down with it and go like, come on, like I would get almost quite quite aggressive with the binge, I would say come on then. And I would try and another one of these tricks I think that sometimes deal with anxiety is to try and make the urge worse. So whatever you're feeling, move towards it, try and make it feel even worse. And it's really difficult to do because to do that you have to accept it and move towards and I've often found when you move towards it, it sort of morphs into something else.
Stephanie Mara 26:33
Yeah.
Sarah Dosanjh 26:34
I know that was a lot there.
Stephanie Mara 26:34
Yeah. I love all these pieces that you're talking about right now! I'm just like, I'm like, I know people can't see my face, but I feel like I'm just like this little kid just like, yes, like I'm loving all these things that you're talking about right now. So, okay, the first thing on adding the piece around what is true, I think that's such a crucial addition. Because exactly like you said, a lot for a lot of individuals, they think compassion as being Oh, it's okay, everything's gonna be all right. And I often recommend individuals to check out the video by Brene Brown on the difference between sympathy and empathy. And that that's what sympathy is, sympathy is putting a bandaid on it, let's just put a bandaid on it. But like the scars still underneath. And that empathy, like what you're talking about is more, let's be in this pain together. And yeah, you feel disappointed in yourself right now. Let's just name that. And that actually, well, it may feel simple, just naming something, like you said, it's moving towards it. And that actually it morphs into something else, even the experience of it starts to decrease in intensity, because you're not trying to fight it anymore. You're not trying to make it go away. It's like, this is my truth. This is what's real. And then the body's like, Oh, you're listening to me, I can relax now.
Sarah Dosanjh 27:56
Yeah, and trying to see emotions as an experience. So I don't know about you, Stephanie. But I've certainly many times had an experience where I've got this feeling that I really don't like. And again, in that moment, this feeling is taking over, and I'm convinced it's gonna last forever. This is it now, this feelings here, and it's never gonna go. I think our emotions can be so compelling, because they often come with a story. So getting curious on what's the story you're telling yourself about the feeling, because we layer our feelings. So we feel, we might feel guilty about feeling angry towards someone, so we're layering it up, or we feel sad about feeling jealous, because we feel like that's a terrible emotion to have, rather than allowing our feelings to just be what they are. So when I started in the way I was talking to myself seeing it as an experience, because one of the feelings that I do experience, from time to time, I have this very existential despair, you know, everything's hopeless and terrible. And I've really had to work on my relationship with this feeling because it comes and I don't know why it comes. And now I take myself to, I'm experiencing despair. And I've experienced it before, and I've experienced, not despair. It doesn't mean that this feeling is actually how things are. Because that's what it feels like, in the moment when the despair comes. It feels like I'm realizing that everything's awful. And it's not it's an experience. So really exploring the stories. I think that's why talking about our stories is so useful. That connection part because it helps us to challenge these stories that when they go unchallenged, we just think they're true. Instead of the story we're telling ourselves about the thing.
Stephanie Mara 29:40
Yeah, that was exactly what I was just thinking was starting to not take the story as a truth or a fact. It's starting, like you've been naming, bringing in that sense of curiosity of Oh, who's saying this story right now and why is this story coming in in this particular moment? And when have I experienced it before? Bringing in just that, even questioning the story so that you can start to view it in a different light. And I also love that you brought in naming when you've even experienced it before, because oftentimes, when we're experiencing intense sensations, emotions in the body, it feels like that's going to last forever. And sometimes thinking of an experience when you have had that emotion or those sensations before, and saying, Well, I got through that experience, and I'm still here just brings in that fresh perspective in the moment of oh, I could get through this again.
Sarah Dosanjh 30:36
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And not shaming ourselves for our emotions. And that's what learning our patterns is about. And that's what I see the work when it comes to trying to understand ourselves. The job's never done, right. There's always another layer to get to. But the more we understand, and the more we notice, the more we can recognize when it's something archaic coming up, as opposed to something that's just a response to what's happening in the here and now.
Stephanie Mara 31:05
Yeah, and I'm curious if you've noticed, with those that you have also worked with that, there's this recognition that comes online, when you're healing patterns of binge eating, that the journey doesn't end. Because you're always going to need to be an eater that I think a lot of individuals come in, and it's like, I just need to fix my binge eating, and then everything in my life will fall into place. And actually, it's this is just the first chapter of your journey of reconnecting and deepening into relationship with yourself. And that it's, it's an ongoing, never ending process.
Sarah Dosanjh 31:44
Yes. So Stef and I talk about this on the podcast that comes up quite a bit, how we notice some of our patterns that we used to play out around food, we're playing them out in other areas of our lives. It's like life keeps trying to teach us something in what it is that we're learning. And yes, I think, because sometimes people will say, Well, does this mean I'm going to struggle with this for the rest of my life if this problem never gets completely fixed and solved? Because I think for most people, recovery isn't this place that you arrive at. And I think when it's presented as such, people just continually feel like they're failing all the time. And it might sound a bit cliche, because, you know, I don't know, you can be the judge of this, but that idea of recovery being a process. So the process is the recovery as such. So there are certain things I need to pay attention to, around my food. And actually, for me, if there's something else going on in my life, the one of the first things I notice is I start over desiring certain types of foods again, like it's almost like the little red flag for me to say, there's something else going on here. And sometimes I'm like, really like another thing? Why is there always something to pay attention to? I think, though, sometimes people feel a bit disheartened. Because they think, Well, if I don't get to a place where this is all fixed, you know, what's the point. And recovery is worth it in as much as I don't have to fight with it every day, like I did before. And even now, when there's a whisper of something, it's that. So there are times when I can, something can happen and the first thought I have is a food. And because it's so sudden in those moments, like I catch it, and it might be a thought about going and getting something but when it's sudden, I know it's normally something else going on. And, how can I put it? It's like, that's not me anymore. So it doesn't matter if there's part of me going, Oh, wouldn't it be a nice idea to go and get a load of food and just zone out for an evening? There's the part of me now just goes well, that's not, I don't do that anymore. And I think we become so identified with our problems. So for me, that's how, that's the point I would say, when I was properly recovered, was when I realized this is not my identity anymore. I'm not sure if that fully made sense.
Stephanie Mara 34:07
Absolutely 100% makes sense. I think it's starting to notice when that part of you that we're talking about comes online and says, Hey, go do that thing. That's gonna be really soothing. And you're like, I say red flag all the time, too. I use that language as well. I'm just like, oh, there's my little red flag of some part of me is really needing my attention right now. And it thinks that food is going to be the answer. And so what I'm really hearing you say is actually you are now able to identify that part of you when they arise. And there's space between kind of the reaction and the action, like, Oh, I'm seeing that part of me be there. And now I have more space, because I'm aware of where this will go. And that actually it doesn't give me what I'm looking for that I can respond to it differently. And I think that's an important kind of delineation to make that it's not necessarily that the urge to binge is just going to go away forever. But your reaction to it changes over time.
Sarah Dosanjh 35:14
And it greatly diminishes in intensity as well, compared to the kind of urges that I used to get when I was really struggling with this. It's more like, it's more like a whisper or like a background noise. Or why don't you do this? It's like, years ago, when I was a teenager, I smoked for awhile. So even now, like there can be the odd occasion, like, if I have a drink, where there'll be a little thought going, Oh, wouldn't it be nice to have a cigarette now? But I don't anymore. And I'm just like, well, that's not who I am anymore. It's that kind of, oh, wouldn't it be nice to and I'm like, I don't think it would be nice to. I stopped doing that for a reason, both of those things.
Stephanie Mara 35:49
Yeah, I think of it as kind of bringing your present day self into the moment that it's you have evolved and changed from what those initial little voices and parts of you would tell you to go do to support you in some way. Like even probably, you know, smoking at some point of your life, you did it for a reason. It was maybe supportive at that time of your life, and then it no longer was supportive anymore. And so that behavior and that relationship changed. And so I'm hearing you bring your present day self online being like, oh, yeah, we have a lot of maybe really fond memories around doing this. And this wouldn't support me in who I am today.
Sarah Dosanjh 36:31
Yes, yes. And I think one of the crucial lessons that I really learned throughout this process was, quite simply don't believe everything you think. I think prior to this, every thought I had, I assumed was true, because that's why I'm thinking it. And once that becomes less true, so even now, if I'm in the emotion, and the story seems really compelling, when I'm in the feeling, I can't necessarily convince myself that the story isn't true, that I can cast doubt on it. I can go well, this is how I'm thinking now, it may not be true. So I need to I need to wait with this don't make any decisions while you're in this particular story.
Stephanie Mara 37:10
So important. Yeah, just to start to question and bring in that curiosity of just because I'm thinking it, it doesn't mean that it's true. And I have seen that even with those that I've worked with that that's, when we're talking about like some of those first initial steps to start taking, I think that's another important first initial step is to bring in that curiosity around your thoughts. Because at first, Yeah, it feels like, well, of course, this is me, I'm thinking it. So how could it not be me. And I think what you're even talking about in kind of parts work, identifying more that it's a part of you and you there are many different parts of you that make up you that once you start to get to know that part of you, just as like, you don't always have to believe everything your family says to you or your friends say to you, it's kind of the same thing of you don't have to believe everything that that part of you is saying to you either.
Sarah Dosanjh 38:05
Yeah. And then I think the next level from that was because you know how you can, in your rational mind know something's true, but it doesn't, you can't feel it, you can't feel that it's true. So there's that split. What happens, I think, for a lot of people and definitely for me, was then I deferred to my feelings, because that's that was what felt true. And that was more compelling than what was going on in my mind. So especially when thoughts and feelings line up that's where your absolute truth exists. So the next part was that I learned beyond that was don't believe everything you feel. Now, I can't believe anything! And that can be liberating or frightening, depending on my mood.
Stephanie Mara 38:48
Absolutely, yeah. 100% understand what you're talking about right now. It's once you start opening yourself up to that, like, Oh, my emotions are maybe coming up because of a reaction of my thoughts. And I don't have to believe what I'm thinking, then also, I don't have to believe what I'm feeling. So what's true in this moment? And I think that kind of comes back to something that I even like to offer, you know, even on this podcast is just naming what is real. Like, okay, let me describe my environment. Like in those overwhelming moments of like, I don't even know what is true right now. Just like what what's tangible, just like, Okay, I'm wearing a pink shirt today. That is something that is tangible, that is something that is real. And that it just it brings it down into like, okay, all I can go off of is this moment and this moment and this moment. It's really a practice of presence when it comes down to it.
Sarah Dosanjh 39:43
Yeah, well, there's a I think there's a nuance here between what's real and what's true. Because the feeling is very real. That's what you're experiencing this feeling. But in terms of what the truth of the feeling or what it means, we plunk meaning on everything. So there's rarely this one absolute truth of what something means. We get to create that. So there's, again, that just sounds like a lot of responsibility that I'm not sure I want.
Stephanie Mara 40:13
And then here comes to binge eating just to be like, we'll make it better!
Sarah Dosanjh 40:19
Yeah, exactly. But then if anybody is wanting to do some of this thought work questioning their thoughts. Do you know Byron Katie?
Stephanie Mara 40:27
Yes. Love Byron Katie!
Sarah Dosanjh 40:29
Yes, massively instrumental, I think, for me in this work, and it starts by you questioning your thoughts about other people, which is a lot easier when you're not confronted with yourself. But it was really humbling to do that, and to change some of my stories about people in my life. But when you change your story of something, you change your experience of it. And I saw that with people and I saw that with food. And I just see that over and over again. So we have a lot of influence over how we want to experience something. It's not to say that it's always easy. And now I almost want to backpedal a bit on that, because there's, there's real challenges that that people might be facing. And again, we have to believe it's true, we can't just say, I'm going to decide to make this mean this thing, because if it doesn't feel true in here, so there is something I think about connecting with yourself, and there's so much information in the body and we we cut off and numb and just really struggle to feel connected with our bodies when we struggle with food.
Stephanie Mara 41:31
Well, I think what you're bringing in is such an important point around the meaning making like that is what our brain is here to do. It wants to understand what is happening in the body or in our life, it's trying to connect things and make a meaning out of it and bringing curiosity around that. And then noticing how your body responds to the meaning that your brain is making. And it's like, Okay, does this feel in alignment? Does this feel frictiony? Does it feel frictiony because actually, that is something that feels difficult to look at, that might actually be a truth? I think there's a lot of layers that you're addressing here that yeah, it is really complicated. And that's why like you said earlier, it's important to get connection, reach out for support, you know, even work with individuals like you that you get to sit with someone and start talking about the stories to then sometimes get support in the meaning you want to make out of it.
Sarah Dosanjh 42:33
Yeah, yeah, it's making me think about Viktor Frankl, you know, Man's Search for Meaning, because he talks about the freedom that we have is the ability to choose our response, which I think is different to choosing your reaction. Because we have these conditioned reactions, these emotions that will just hit. Particularly if we look at something like guilt around food, sometimes, a person who's struggling with food might eat something, feel guilt immediately before they're even conscious of having a thought about it. So I don't think we get to that place where we can choose our response, until we're able to kind of zoom out and become the observer and the watcher. And from that place, that part of us has the capacity to choose a response. But we've got all these other human responses that are just very reactive that may be beyond our control.
Stephanie Mara 43:21
Yeah. It's so fascinating how deep this work can go, that I know that I often find with those that I work with, it starts with being like, Okay, I'm coming in because of this binge eating behavior. And then we're getting to a place of, well how do you want to live your life? And that it's, I think it's important to make those connections that when you're starting on a healing journey around your relationship with food, it does go to these deeper places of where do you feel like you haven't been showing up? Where do you feel like you're out of alignment with how you're living? And that it's all about those baby steps. Like, we went like, it's really interesting just to even like, zoom out and see how deep our conversation went in such a short amount of time of just like, yeah, it starts with this surface level, like what's happening in my relationship with food and wow it really goes into how is this a reflection of how I'm showing up in my relationship with my life, and myself and my family and my friends and dada, dada dada...
Sarah Dosanjh 44:26
So true. I mean, I'm thinking now of someone who might say that they binge to manage stress, because they're so stressed that they binge and it's, they'll say, How do I manage this stress without binging? And like, what's the stress? What's going on in your life? Like, maybe there's something else that needs to be looked at. Is there an issue in your relationship? Is there an issue with your job? Where are you feeling inauthentic in your life that you're feeling stressed? Where are you not saying no to things because you keep saying yes and taking too much on which can certainly lead to overwhelm. So sometimes the binge eating, I think, can be this convenient scapegoat. I need to put all my energy into this problem before I do any of the other stuff. Or when people delay things, and they say, right, I need to fix my eating before I can go for that promotion, before I can date, before I can do this, before I can do that. And sometimes in order to resolve the binge eating, you've got to start doing those things. It's like I'll fix myself, then I'll go and live my life. And it's like, maybe you need to live your life to find that balance with food. And yes, we love resistance so that I can relate to that as well.
Stephanie Mara 45:34
Absolutely. Because like we were talking about before, your body, your brain, everything is like, No, we need to fix this, this is a problem. This needs to be fixed first. And once you do that, then everything can happen. And I flip flop that all the time as well, that it's Oh, actually, if you really start feeling more alive and vibrant in the life that you're living, will that behavior naturally shift and change, because it's no longer needed anymore. And I love how you got really curious about, well, why are you stressed? Even to bring in, well, how are you responding to your stress? Of what we were talking about before of, Yeah, sometimes we get stressed as people. And like you even said, sometimes it was just like owning Oh, this is a part of me or this is how I just am feeling right now and I've gotten through this, same thing with the scapegoatness of oh, you know, if I actually don't even make my emotions a scapegoat anymore that I need to avoid them, then it's like, okay, yeah, I feel stressed. And how am I actually trying to avoid just allowing myself to feel that?
Sarah Dosanjh 46:43
Yeah, yeah. And I think a lot of the time with stress, the stress comes from how we're talking to ourselves about what's going on more so than the thing itself. That willingness to go out and live. We want to fix ourselves first, I think because we want to then emerge as somehow this best version. And I think it's a way of avoiding vulnerability. Like, I don't want to go out into the world warts and all, I need to fix myself so that I can go out as this stronger, better version of myself, and then I can't be hurt, then I'm less likely to be rejected. And I'm less likely for people to treat me this way. And I think that, yeah, comes to vulnerability, which we can always tie back to Brene Brown again. Talking about vulnerability, right?
Stephanie Mara 47:26
There's so many different resources to rely on today. And I want to make sure that we leave time to also how can individuals continue to connect with you? Where can they find you? Do you have any upcoming offerings that individuals should know about?
Sarah Dosanjh 47:41
Yeah, well, I would recommend that people check out the podcast Life After Diets that I do with Stefanie Michele, who I think has been on this podcast as well. We are in the process of building a community. We now do live events for listeners, where we come together and we share stories and we talk about all this kind of thing in a private online space, those aren't recorded. I'm also on YouTube, I've got a channel there, the binge eating therapist. You can find me there. I'm on Instagram, also the @the_binge_eating_therapist there. So any of those channels, whichever one you prefer, you can come and find me if you would like to.
Stephanie Mara 48:14
Awesome. Well, thank you so much for sharing your experience and your wisdom today. I feel like there were just so many gold nuggets that came out of this episode. And I'm really excited for the work that you're doing in the world. It's really important and needed and a lot of individuals are looking for support around their relationship with their food and so just thank you for doing what you do.
Sarah Dosanjh 48:37
Thank you for inviting me on Stephanie.
Stephanie Mara 48:39
Yeah. Well to all listeners, if you have any questions I will drop both of our emails in the show notes. Reach out anytime and I hope you just have a beautiful rest of your day and connect with you all soon. Bye!
Keep in touch with Sarah here:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/the_binge_eating_therapist/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/TheBingeEatingTherapist/featured
Website: www.thebingeeatingtherapist.com
Podcast: Life After Diets
Contact: sarah@thebingeeatingtherapist.com
Resources mentioned in this episode:
Brene Brown's video The Difference Between Sympathy and Empathy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZBTYViDPlQ
Loving What Is by Byron Katie
Man’s Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl