How Metaphor, Allegory, and Symbolism Can Guide You Toward Healing Food and Body Issues

Welcome to The Satiated Podcast where we explore physical and emotional hunger, satiation, and healing your relationship with your food and body. I'm your host Stephanie Mara Fox your Somatic Nutritional Counselor. I’m honored to get to talk with Dr. Anita Johnston today. Anita is a clinical psychologist and certified eating disorder specialist and supervisor, working in the field of women’s issues and eating disorders for over 35 years. She is the author of the best selling book, Eating in the Light of the Moon and co-creator of the Light of the Moon Cafe, a series of online interactive courses and women’s support circles, and Soul Hunger workshops. She is the Executive Clinical Director of 'Ai Pono Hawaii Eating Disorder Treatment Program. Welcome Anita!

Anita Johnston 00:53

Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.

Stephanie Mara 00:55

Yeah, I'm thrilled to talk with you today. And before we even dive in, I wanted to share how much your book has been such a huge part of my own life in that when I was deep into healing my own relationship with food, my therapist at the time recommended I read your book. And at the time, I was really learning about how to sit and be with myself and reading your book was the moments that I would practice slowing down and just being with what is. So whoever is listening to this and if you haven't read eating in the light of the moon, I often recommend it, it's on my suggested reading list, like go pick up this book. And you know, I want to dive into how you got into this work, and even how the inspiration for your book got created.

Anita Johnston 01:47

It's a really long story. Because I started a long time ago. But the book came out way, way back when I was working with folks who were struggling with disordered eating. And mind you this was a long time ago. This is back in 1982. So there really wasn't much that had been written. And there was really very little research and most of that had been done on young white female college students. And I was working in Hawaii at the time. And I was seeing such a diversity of folks struggling with the whole range of disordered eating everything from full blown anorexia, which had just then become a household term because Karen Carpenter had recently died. And that made a lot of news and bulimia was really just entered into the DSM at that time. And binge eating disorder wasn't, wasn't even on the table. And so I was supervising a psychology student that was doing her doctoral dissertation on the incidence of eating disorders in Hawaii. So we just kept meeting to talk about what was happening. And we were joined by a social worker who had had her own recovery experience. And we were just trying to figure out what was going on. And we kept seeing so many people struggling, we said, well, there should be a center here. There's a lot of people that need this help. And after we set it for about the fifth time we looked at each other well, okay, I guess we're at. So we created a center, and it was girls and women only back then for whatever reason of all ages, all sizes, all ethnicities, all walks of life, but all struggling with some form of body image or eating. So as I started working with these individuals, and the three of us would meet, we're just trying to figure it out. So many of my clients were asking me about some of the concepts I was talking about that really came out of my just listening to these girls and women to try to figure out okay, what is it first of all back then why was it females? Second of all, why these particular girls and women? And third, why was the struggle with food and their bodies. And so as I would listen, I could hear that their stories were similar to old fairy tales, like the emperor's new clothes, were they were very emotionally sensitive, highly intuitive individuals who could perceive subtle realities, but those around them said, What's wrong with you, or you're weird or whatever. And so out of this desire to fit in, well, really to belong, which is something we all want but they confuse that with fitting in, they got entangled in trying to look a certain way and to feel a certain way and be a certain way. And the food came in as a way of trying to make that happen. So how the book got started. It started off as just a little booklet for my clients because they wanted to know well, where can they read more about these concepts and I'm hasn't been written. So I started writing the book and then started using more and more stories and fairy tales. That seemed to speak to what they were struggling with.

Stephanie Mara 05:03

Yeah, that's so amazing. You know, I'm hearing kind of the synchronicity in, you know, finding the people and the places and it all just coming together. And I'm wondering, in your process of, you know, writing in eating in the light of the moon coming off of also the clients, you were seeing how much you feel like metaphor and myth has supported individuals in understanding why they're doing what they're doing with food and helping them heal.

Anita Johnston 05:28

Well, what I discovered and it started off my daughters were going to Waldorf school at the time, and they would come home and everything in a lot of schools is taught in stories. So they'd come home with stories about, oh, we learned about Prince division and Prince multiplication, and I'm going, Oh, my gosh, I would probably know my times tables if I had learned that way. And so I started to realize, oh, you can use stories and metaphors to help people understand some very complex things. And also in a way that can be a little disarming, because they're so caught up in it. And so as a way, another way that was also threatening of exploring and approaching, you know, what the struggle was. And so I started using metaphors. And then I started to see that I called it back then, because I didn't know any better that when a metaphor would click, when someone would have an insight and they go, Oh, my gosh, I got it, I would see what I call the lights going off in someone's eyes, I could just see this, this something light up? Well, now we know this is I love so much Neuroscience tells us and I'm a bit of a geek about that is that there's a part of a fold in our brain right above our right ear. And when we get a sudden insight, what that fold, it's called the anterior superior temporal gyrus. And what it does is it shoots out a blast of gamma waves, which is the highest electrical frequency in the brain. And that's how new neural pathways are made. So when you're using metaphor, one of the things that allows for is an instantaneous kind of insight or understanding that affects the psyche on multiple levels, and has a transforming function, whether the metaphor is from songs or poems, but it also affects the brain and creating new neural pathways. As time has gone on, I started to see that it works. But now I'm understanding more how it works and why it works.

Stephanie Mara 07:23

That's amazing, and incredible. And I'm a big fan of metaphor and analogy, and what have you found in your work, even if you could provide an example of a metaphor that is really clicked with those you've worked with that they start to understand? Oh, this isn't my fault of what's playing out with my relationship with food?

Anita Johnston 07:44

Yeah, you want to hear one? Yeah. I'll share you. This is my very favorite one. And it's my favorite because to this day, I get emails from people around the world, telling me oh, when I heard this metaphor, I got it. And so I'll share the metaphor, and then I'll break it down for you and tell you exactly what it's doing. So we always start with your imagination, right? That's our superpower. And I have clients that say, Well, I don't have a good imagination. And I like to say, what do you think worry is, right? Where is a bad use of a good imagination. So we start with that, imagine you're on the banks of a raging river is pouring down, right? You slip, you fall in, you're drowning, you're getting pulled down through the rapids, and along comes a big log, and you grab on and the log saves your life, it keeps your head above water, when surely would have been pulled down. And eventually it carries you to a place in the river where the water is calm. And from there, you can see the river bank, but you can't get there because of the log. So the irony is you're clinging to the log, you can't swim. So the very thing that saved your life is now getting in the way of you going where you want to go in life. And to make it more complicated. There's always someone on the riverbank yelling, like all along, and you feel like an absolute idiot, because you can't like well, the luck. Well, the way I see it is letting go that log may not be the best thing to do initially. Because what happens if you let go that log start to swim to shore, get halfway there and realize, oh, shoot, I don't have the strength to make it without that means you don't have the strength to make it back to that log either. And you're really sunk. So I believe we all have a wise part of ourselves that will not will not let us let go of anything until we're good and ready. So what do you do instead? Well let go the log and you practice floating and when you start to sink, you grab back on and then you let go of the log and you try treading water. And when you get tired, you grab back on and then you let go of the log and you swim around at once and grab back on twice and grab back 10 times 100 times 200 times whatever it takes for you have the strength and confidence to make a dish short, then you let go of the law. Why? Because you've put it out of a job. So the idea is now notice I'm not talking about eating disorders that all right, I'm talking about a log in the river. But people can relate to it. Because for example, when you use metaphor, it speaks to the emotional experience. So there's a big difference between saying, Oh, my gosh, I have a lot of paperwork, and I'm drowning in paperwork, right? When we say I'm dry, we totally know what that feels like. And so I'm bringing in the emotions and the sensations, and I'm connecting to the psyche. In that way, I'm also taking away some of the shame because who wouldn't grab onto the log, of course, you're gonna grab onto the log, I mean, not only that has a good thing to do. Right? When you're, when you're drowning, that's not the problem. The problem is, and here I'm bringing in the concept of skills, you don't quite have the skills yet to do what you need to do, and take care of yourself and go where you want to go in life without the skills. And you're going to be holding on to that log, of course, until you develop those skills until you learn how to swim or whatever. And so again, I'm bringing in a lot of the experience of the struggle with disordered eating into a story about a river and a log it but I'm introducing some what I think are important recovery concepts, but important because we live in a world with so much diet mentality, everyone's thinking, well, willpower, I don't have enough willpower. It's like, No, it has nothing to do with that life, send stuff our way that you know, we have to cope with. And if we don't have a whole lot of resources and support, we're going to grab on to whatever we can, as well, we should. But there comes a time you can learn these skills. And they don't take special DNA is like their skills, like driving a car or riding a bike, or playing the piano. Anyone can learn it with a little bit of practice.

Stephanie Mara 11:58

Yeah, thanks for sharing that example. I was already you know, as you were even going through that metaphor, connecting all of the experiences that even those that I work with go through have starting to have a new perspective of why they reached for food to begin with. And I think that is such a beautiful example of you needed that log. Yeah, like that. That was your resource.

Anita Johnston 12:22

And that's what metaphor can do one of my favorite things that metaphor can do, because it's very transformative, but he can take something that appears to be negative and flip it into something positive. And the reason why that's so important is that when you're filled with shame, and self loathing, there's not a lot of energy for recovery. So anytime that I can flip that and say, Well, no wonder you did it. Well, of course you did it. It's like, oh, okay, now we've got some energy for healing and can point us towards that.

Stephanie Mara 12:55

Yeah, absolutely. And shame and judgment and guilt are such huge parts of what someone is bringing forth when they're beginning to try to heal their relationship with food, that also keeps them stuck to that log, they can see where they want to go. And I loved the example of Sometimes you actually need to first kind of circle around the log of many times, because how much shame also comes in, I'm still doing it, why am I still doing it? It's still happening. Why am I still doing this? Like, if you're doing it for a reason, and this just maybe needs to happen for a period of time as you're building up the strength to leave the log.

Anita Johnston 13:29

Right. And I think that's one of the hardest parts in recovery. There's this period of time. And it's dreadful, because there's a period of time between when you get it like you go, Oh, my God, I got this, and the development of the skill set that's required. And so that's why people say, Why do I keep doing this? I know better, what's wrong with me. And it's a dangerous place in some ways, because that is where the judgment is going to come rushing in. And the judgment gets in the way of recovery. So you have to bring in what I consider the antidote to judgment, which is curiosity. Hmm, well, how come? How come now I found myself binging Yeah, I know blah, blah. But what is it that I'm needing to strengthen so that the next time I'm in this situation, I'll have a different outcome. And so that kind of curiosity is really valuable.

Stephanie Mara 14:23

Yeah, I completely agree with that, that as soon as we take away the judgment and the shame and the guilt, it's like, oh, can I bring it this compassion in this curiosity of this is playing out to try and support and protect me and if I start to take that lens of this experience, it actually does get you where you want to go even a little bit faster. Not that you need to get there as fast as possible but you know that sometimes it's the judgment of what you're doing that tends to slow the healing process down.

Anita Johnston 14:53

I would say always it's like you can count on it, the judgments gonna slow it down and create some have really huge blocks that then it becomes so much more effortful when it doesn't have to be.

Stephanie Mara 15:06

Yeah, what have you found in your experience is kind of pieces that are missing, you know, I've been working in this field for over a decade now. And you start to kind of pick out of like, wow, this is really missing from this field to kind of support people in getting to where they want to go hearing one piece for you as been metaphor. Is there anything else that you've kind of picked up that, you know, would be supportive for people to know of like, Hey, this is a piece that would be supportive on your healing path?

Anita Johnston 15:31

Yeah, I think it will, it comes out of what I understand recovery to be. And essentially, you know, people think, well, they're going back to where they were before the eating sorted, it's like noooo. That's what this is about. This is not just symptom removal, right? This is about what recovery is, is is moving into a place where you become more of who you truly are. And so I think a missing piece is really understanding, you know, what is recovery. And I believe that it's a strong connection to your authentic self, and claiming the uniqueness of your being. And we live in a culture that really discourages us from that tremendously. And there's a pattern that can get developed in childhood. But I think it's important when I share this concept with clients, they go, Oh, now I see why I developed an eating disorder, how it had to happen, and more importantly, what now I'm needing to do different. So it's this idea that we're all born with two very powerful drives, right? One is the drive for connection and attachment. Because we are mammals, we don't hatch out of an egg and just go on our way, right? No, we have to attach to our caregivers in order to survive. And we're also though born with as humans, another equally powerful drive, unless the drive for authenticity, that's the drive to become who were meant to be to be our unique person that's as unique as our thumbprint. But what happens in childhood is that often these two drives come into conflict. And guess which one wins attachment it has to and what that means is that we try to be how we imagine our caregivers want us to be so little kid wants a cookie, Mommy says no, you can't have a cookie, we're having dinner in an hour. And little kid goes, I want a cookie, cookie. And mommy says, If you don't cut that out, right now, you're not gonna get any cookies at all. And little kid goes, Okay, I don't want a cookie. Now, what little kid has done and we all do it we have to do it is perceived, how we need to be in order to get our needs met. Now, to make a little more complicated, what I believe is folks who struggle with disordered eating are very emotionally sensitive, highly intuitive, and really good at picking up on how others want them to be, or how they want them to look and act and think and feel, and so on. So they become very adept. Whenever there's a conflict between authenticity and connection, they choose connection. And the problem with that is twofold. One, that pattern that gets created in childhood gets carried into adulthood, when really, authenticity needs to win. The other part of that is whenever we choose attachment, and connection over authenticity, that disconnect from self creates a great deal of tension in our being if you think of a towel being twisted into different directions. And that tension eventually becomes very painful. And we'll grab on to anything in order to try to cope with that pain. And it could be food, it could be drugs, it could be alcohol, it could be sex, it could be shopping, but that's how somebody can become really addictive. And so the task, then if you're moving towards recovery, is how do you claim your authentic self, all of who you are, you know, good, bad, ugly, indifferent, you know, passionate, all those different aspects, because that's what recovery looks like. And so one of the skill sets is learning how to be yourself and be in relationship with another at the same time, because we're social animals, right? And so what happens is someone thinks, Okay, well, I can be myself, as long as I'm by myself. And often the job of the eating disorder is to create a bubble that you're in and nobody else can come in. So you know, there's that and then there's the other part of entering a relationship and abandoning yourself at the doorstep which feels really bad. And of course, then you have to turn to whatever eating behaviors help you cope. So I think understanding this process of really learning how, how to be yourself and be in relationship at the same time is crucial to recovery. That is what recovery is.

Stephanie Mara 20:01

Yes, yes, yes, I'm absolutely agreeing with everything that you're saying right now. And I've totally seen that as well that some of the individuals I've worked with that struggle with their food are some of the wisest, like, and I say sensitive in regards of like that is their superpower, picking up so much in their environment, and that food came in because no one knew how to meet them in this superpower that they have of being sensitive, and picking up things and intuiting things. And to step back into that can also feel incredibly scary.

Anita Johnston 20:37

Totally scary. That's why you need skills, right? And the skills that sad to say, you're not going to learn in school, right. And most of us certainly didn't learn it in our families. And, and so I think one of the most important skill in fact, I believe, in total, complete recovery, recovery period done End of story, I've been doing this long enough to know people that that that is exactly what's happened, people I'm very close to, it's not even opposed to a part of their life that disordered eating, but I've never, ever seen anyone fully, completely recover without this skill. And that's the skill of assertive communication. Because that is how you learn to stay connected to sell and still engage with others and communicate in a way that honors your experience, and also honors the experience of the other person.

Stephanie Mara 21:27

Yeah, I completely agree with that as well. And oftentimes, we're not like you just said, we're not getting those skills of learning how to communicate and even be in disagreement, or tension are not on the same page with those we love and those we're in relationship with. We don't pick those up from our family. And we don't learn them in school.

Anita Johnston 21:47

If I had it my way it would be taught in every school in the country, but I don't get to have it my way. So I teach it as best I can, I create courses for people to learn this. It's like you gotta get this one.

Stephanie Mara 21:51

Yeah. And so when we're talking about kind of assertive communication, what does that even mean? Like how would you define that? What does that look like?

Anita Johnston 22:07

I think it's the ability to identify, accept, and express your feelings in a way that is honest, and straightforward, and kind. There's a lot in that, right, you have to learn. First of all, you have to develop emotional literacy, you have to learn what your feelings are, you have to learn the nature of emotions, which is really hard. Because again, we're not taught that we're taught that emotions are like things, and they're not at all and we're taught they're good and bad and right and wrong. And they're waves of energy. You have to learn how to ride them.

Stephanie Mara 22:39

You know, what I often find is that that communication that we're talking about, it first has to start within ourselves, we have to learn how do I communicate with myself? First, I'm noticing how do I feel about this? Because it can feel really scary. And I find this with those that I work with that to have the conversation, the assertive conversation with someone else can feel anxiety provoking, overwhelming take you outside your window of tolerance. And so it first has to start with, Okay, let me practice of I didn't really feel great about that conversation that just happened. But how do I feel about it? Can I journal about it? Can I check in with myself about it first, just as I express how I feel, and then the practice can be taking it out towards communicating with other people. But I think it first starts with self first, just owning this is how I feel. And it's okay to feel how I feel about this.

Anita Johnston 23:33

Yeah, there's something about understanding the nature of emotions, that's really so important. And sometimes you don't have to do anything with them. Just sit and notice them as they come in, peak and pass, and then come back in, and peak and pass. So I think you're right, you start off simply by noticing you don't have to do anything with them.

Stephanie Mara 23:54

Yeah. And I think that's such a different approach to our emotions, that takes time. Because often, like when you were giving that example of the little kid, what I find is these food behaviors start so young, is that it's, oh, no one's there to hold space for this, or they don't know how to meet me in this. And so food comes in to help me meet myself in it. And so to say, Oh, wait, I'm gonna meet myself in it without food. You know, that takes a lot of practice over and over and over again. And sometimes food might continue to come in to help you come into contact with yourself and that's okay, too.

Anita Johnston 24:34

Well, there's a reason for that. We're hard wired to turn to food to soothe and comfort us. If you think of your very first experience on the planet and you're in distress and what do you give him? The breast or the bottle and you go, oh, so we're built to use food to help us soothe and there's a reason we call it comfort food. The problem is when that becomes the the only way you know how to soothe and comfort yourself.

Stephanie Mara 25:04

Yeah, that's so funny. I say that all the time. But it's like, Absolutely, food is always going to be a resource, we never want you to take it off of your list of things that are going to support you. Because biologically, like, yeah, we're just naturally drawn to that from the time that we're born. And we have this embodied memory of like you said, like breast or bottle. It's like, Oh, I get really into relationship with this food. And I feel safe. And so it's like, we never have to take that off of your list. Building on to it.

Anita Johnston 25:35

Right? You just increased your repertoire of responses.

Stephanie Mara 25:38

Yeah, yeah. What have you found as you're kind of building on people's repertoire, other things that have been supportive for those that you've worked with that it's like food and...

Anita Johnston 25:50

Well, I think one of the first steps is really differentiating the different kinds of hunger. And then again, this is where metaphor comes in. And unfortunately, in our culture, just like, you know, the internet, they have a lot of different words for snow, and we have snow, sleet, not a lot of words. And indigenous cultures. In the tropics, they have a lot of different words for rain, and we have rain. And so it is with hunger, we have to differentiate first, the difference between physical and non physical hungers. So that goes with, of course, developing interoceptive awareness and really learning how to do that. But the metaphor I like to use for that is imagine back to imagination, right? Two tanks, I'm going to call them something fancy like Tank A and type B, and Tank A as the tank you fill when you need physical nourishment. You fill it with food, Tank B, just the tank you fill when you need emotional or spiritual nourishment. And you fill it with things like attention, affection, appreciation, meditation, prayer, and so on. But most people don't know this, they think there's just one tank. And so before they know it either take a is full and overflowing, and they're still hungry, or they don't really want to get close to take a because it seems like the bottomless pit. So they would restrict learning your hunger and satiety cues is an important part of this process. Because that's how you tease the two tanks apart. So I might work with someone and finding out what they are for them. But then there's the second part of this because you learn your hunger and satiety cues, you know them totally and, and you're reaching for the pizza, and you check in not a hunger signal in sight. But you still want to eat that pizza. Well, in that instance, you've just tumbled down Alice in Wonderland rabbit hole and landed smack dab in tank B. And it Tank B pizzas not pizza. Food isn't food. What is it? It's a concrete physical symbol of another kind of hunger you're experiencing, and may not even know about. And so what happens is we confuse the symbol for the real deal. So for example, you can have 1000 American flags. Are you more free? Right? We know No, it's just a symbol of freedom. It's not freedom itself. And so what happens then is food becomes the symbol of other kinds of hungers that you're experiencing. So then the question ask yourself is, what's the feeling I'm trying not to feel? Right, because that's really often when food comes into into that vacuum. So you might want to look at the course of your day. And you can say, well, maybe I'm annoyed that they're jerk who cut me off on the freeway or, or I'm concerned about an upcoming parent teacher meeting, or annoyed at somebody my boss said, or you just do a scan, but most of the time, the answer you get is gonna be, huh, I don't know, I feel fine. Because it's those other hungers. They're hidden, but they're hidden in the food itself, which is so cool. But they're coded in that metaphor. So then you can look at the very foods you're struggling with, because they're talking to you. And they're gonna tell you what the other hungers are once you learn how to crack the code. So I'll give you a brief synopsis for doing this. If any of your listeners are interested, you can get a PDF at light of the moon cafe.com forward slash s, a T for associated. And here's how you crack the code. And again, thinking that we're all unique. These are some categories though, to get you started to think metaphorically. So sweet foods usually have to do with either feeling like there's not enough sweetness in your life, or you're not sweet enough. Just think of the way we use the word sweet. We say, Oh, she's such a sweetheart or that was a really sweet thing to do. Or Whoa, sweet. I mean, when you think about how we were looking for this We'd spot right so we use the foods metaphorically we just don't realize that but when we're struggling with those foods they're talking. So crunchy salty foods are usually connected with unexpressed anger and frustration like you want to bite someone's head off warm foods, soups and stews are have to do with a typically a craving for emotional warmth. Spicy foods are often connected with either a fear of or a desire for because this works both ways. Excitement, stimulation and change. And chocolate. We know this from Valentine's Day, right love romance, sensuality, sexuality. And so when you can start to look at those foods you struggle with not as the enemy, but as something that's trying to communicate something to you. But it's talking in the language of metaphor, and you learn how to crack that code it not only can it be astounding, but it actually even gets to be a little bit of fun. I'll give you an example. Like I had a client she struggled with bulimia. And I said to her, I said okay, if there were any food that you wished you could eat, and there was zero consequences, no consequences whatsoever, what food would that be, and cheese, oh, for no ice cream strawberries on top. So okay, I want you to imagine I've never had it, and you're gonna tell me what's so wonderful about it. And she said, It's sweet. It's smooth, and it's refreshing. Now, when we took a look at what was going on in her life, her boyfriend was accusing her of not being sweet enough, she had had a really rough patch with her parents that she was desperately wanting to smooth out. And she was in a dead end job in need of a refreshing change. So one food, three issues that needed to be addressed. And so it kind of works like that. Sometimes it's in the actual language of the food itself. But it's really pretty amazing when you can start to crack that code.

Stephanie Mara 32:01

So cool. I've seen that as well, with those that I've worked with that if we bring in just again, like word curiosity, curiosity around why this food, you know, out of all the foods that you crave, are all the foods that you can reach for why this one, and it provides some really interesting information back from this is how our body's trying to communicate to us.

Anita Johnston 32:25

And it and it can be connected to memories, it can be the way in which you eat those foods, or who you associate with those foods. I mean, it goes on and on. And on the stories that I hear. It just kind of blows my mind how when you can get to what the essence is that you're really wanting, then you can say, Okay, now how can I create that in other ways, but the cool thing is, is once you realize you can tap into the very foods that you're so afraid of. And if you listen, metaphorically, you're going to learn some just incredible things.

Stephanie Mara 33:02

Yeah, and I really appreciate you just bringing in that particular example with that client of starting to take the judgment out of the foods that you crave, like D label them, because oftentimes the foods that we want to reach for, we're already telling ourselves, I shouldn't crave that I shouldn't eat that I shouldn't reach for that. But it kind of squashes the ability to hear the body wisdom of why why that food. So if we take away all of the associations that we have with that food, that's when you can kind of more hear the teaching that's trying to come through.

Anita Johnston 33:39

That's why diets don't work. And we know they don't work because we've seen the research over and over and over again. But I think the reason is, is that you're throwing away some valuable clues that are going to help you resolve the real issues, those real issues that are driving the disordered eating behavior. You're just throwing away the evidence and not having an opportunity to learn what you need to learn. So, of course, the problem with food is going to continue. How could it not?

Stephanie Mara 34:07

Yeah, yeah. So we've talked about a lot of different layers here. And what do you find, like, depending upon, you know, some individuals who are listening, they're right at the beginning, somewhere in the middle, some or maybe trying to come to the end. And I also just want to add that I agree with you that I think there's a lot of controversy that some people are like, you know, full recovery is impossible, like this is always going to be something that's a part of your path. But I agree with you that I have seen full recovery possible. And that is something that individuals are capable of that you having an issue with food doesn't have to be your whole life experience or part of your story. And I'm wondering, like what is a first baby step that you find that people can start to take, you know, as they're entering into bringing in this experience of metaphor and getting curious about you know, why they do the things they do with food?

Anita Johnston 34:57

Well, to start off with I think when I think of recovery, I like to think of it as a train with many stops. So there are some people that they want to get off at the first stop. And if that means for them, no more behaviors, even though they're still having the thoughts or the impulse, that's fine. As long as they know that there are other stops down the road, should they choose to go there. So you know, I think that's an individual choice. But it's important to know that Yeah, at the end of the line, total completely recovery is possible. But to start off with, really has to do with finding ways to connect with yourself. Because at the light of the moon cafe at ipon, on my residential facility, there's nothing I can do to take away someone's eating disorder, I don't have that kind of power. And I'm not going to but what we do do and what my focus is, is strengthening that person's connection to their authentic self, that's going to take care of the eating disorder. And that's what's going to put the eating disorder out of a job. And so to just to keep in the big picture, that that's kind of where you're headed. But to start off with little tiny baby steps. And I think it is important to understand that recovery is possible. Like I said, you you need to have hope before you even begin this journey. Because sometimes it's really tough. And sometimes it's scary. And sometimes it's just oriented. And I like to use the metaphor of a labyrinth instead of a maze, a labyrinth, it's twisting and turning, but there's no in and out, the labyrinth just takes you to the center. And then with that knowing you go back out, amaze is got wrong turns and mistakes and backtracks and relapse and all of that. And that's really not what the processes is about. So the process is about really connecting with your authentic self. And that can mean start off with learn your hunger and satiety signals. Just notice them don't think you have to do anything about it at the very beginning, just start to get to know and sometimes even just taking two bites at a time and going, Okay, what happened to my hunger? Is it the same as it changed, and just really finding those sensations in the body. But it doesn't have to be linear, you can be doing that, while you're getting to know, you know, your feelings and understanding the nature of feelings and just noticing, oh my gosh, that really ticks me off, I have no idea why it takes me up. But I know that that I don't like that. So I think that that's just a place to start knowing that ultimately, you're going to find the skills that are going to connect with the disordered eating. But you don't have to go right to that first and eliminate the behaviors because that's the hard route to just go in and try to get rid of behaviors without any understanding of what their job is. So I think the most important question to ask is, What is my disordered eating doing for me? It's easy to see what is doing to me, right? That's really easy. But what's it doing for me and just start looking at that?

Stephanie Mara 38:05

Yeah, I really appreciate all of those pieces. And first just describing it more as a train, you know, I find that yeah, there are a lot of stops on this journey. And wherever you're at, you're exactly where you need to be. And I know sometimes it feels maybe hard to be there. But maybe that's just the stop that you're ready to be at. And you're not ready to take that next stop on that train track yet. And that's okay. And you know, I love just your explanation of like putting it out of a job. That's just spot on that it's like, yeah, you're eating behaviors, they're doing a really important job for you. It's been really effective for a very long time. But more of those skills and more of the practices that we've been talking about today need to come online to be able to say, Okay, I don't need that to support me anymore. And I have so much else that I can lean on.

Anita Johnston 38:57

Yeah, there's an old Zen saying that says, "Don't get stuck looking at the finger pointing to the moon. Look at the moon." Now, dogs don't understand symbolic language. So if you're pointing they might be looking at your finger to see if there's a treat. But we understand that and so if you start to see the really the struggle with food is pointing you somewhere. Where is that? And what is that?

Stephanie Mara 39:21

So well said and I just so appreciate your wisdom and your time today. And how can individuals keep in touch with you and this incredible work that you do in the world?

Anita Johnston 39:32

Well, they can go to lightofthemooncafe.com I have a newsletter that I send out and I have a lot of free materials and notices about upcoming events and if they're interested in any of the courses and they're working with a professional dietician a therapist a coach, they can get a 20% discount from that professional so all the professional has to do is go to lighter the moon cafe.com also and get a cup And then pass on that discount. So that's where they can find me.

Stephanie Mara 40:04

Awesome. And I'll make sure I put all of the links and even the links you said before in the show notes so everyone has access to that. And just, again, thank you so much for sharing everything you did today. I am just so incredibly grateful for the work that you've put out in the world both for you know, it was impactful on my journey, and I know it's been hugely impactful with those that I work with as well.

Anita Johnston 40:04

I'm glad. I'm glad to hear that.

Stephanie Mara 40:11

Yeah, and to those who are listening as always, if you have any questions about anything that we explored today, please reach out anytime. I'll put our contact in the show notes and I look forward to connecting with you all again real soon. Bye!

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