Game Changing Body Based Strategies for Binge Eating Recovery

Welcome to the Satiated Podcast, where we explore physical and emotional hunger, satiation, and healing your relationship with your food and body. I'm your host, Stephanie Mara Fox, your somatic nutritional counselor. This is actually a pretty wild story. During my first year in my PhD, a woman reached out to me through the contact form on my website and was like, "Hey, we're doing similar work! I would love to connect." I starred the email as something I needed to follow up on and then it got completely buried in my inbox. Then, several months later, one of my teachers emailed me and said, "Did you see this dissertation defense coming up? It is on binge eating." I immediately marked it in my calendar as something I had to attend. I arrived at the Zoom dissertation defense and as soon as I see this woman's name I was like, "Why is this person's name sound so familiar?" I sneak off into my inbox and look up her name and lo and behold, it was the same person who emailed me a few months prior. Honestly, I initially felt mortified I had not followed up with her sooner, but I immediately emailed her after the defense was over. We scheduled a Zoom chat and it was amazing how much we had in common. A few more months go by and I reached out to her again to see if she wanted to do a podcast swap and be on each other's podcast. And here we are today, where I'm so excited to introduce you to Dr. Kristina Dobyns and the amazing research she did on binge eating. Dr. Kristina Dobyns is an integrative recovery coach and educator specializing in binge eating and food addiction recovery through embodiment, mindfulness, and animal-based nutrition. She holds a PhD in Somatic Psychology, a master’s in Exercise Science, and is a Registered Somatic Movement Therapist, a certified Nutritional Therapy Practitioner, and a certified Mindfulness-Based Relapse Prevention facilitator. She advocates for individuals to live courageously to support their own recovery, even if they must live a more intentional and even unconventional life. We chat about what worked and didn't work in Kristina's binge eating recovery journey, what she discovered in her research on binge eating, the importance of building somatic awareness and interoception, the role of sensory strategies, utilizing nutrition as a part of binge eating recovery, and challenging conventional recovery approaches. As a reminder, ways you can support the Satiated podcast include leave a review anywhere that you listen to podcasts to help others find the show. You can also check out all of my affiliate links, join Satiated+ and be able to Ask Me Anything each month, or check out working with me 1:1 or in any of my programs. I have self paced programs and my three month live Somatic Eating® Program which you can join the waitlist for. The next class will be in October. All links are in the show notes. Now, welcome Kristina! I am really excited to have you here, and to connect with you further. I feel like when we get into conversation, we could just chat for hours and hours and hours, so I'll try to be conscientious of how much time we talk today, but I would love to get started in you sharing a little bit about your background and how you got into the work and your approach that you're doing today.

Dr. Kristina Dobyns 03:50

It has definitely been circuitous, you know, I feel like I've had so many evolutions in my life, and I'd say short story is I started, well, I'd say since part of what's really relevant about our chatting today, and one of the ways that we are connected is regarding eating disorder history. So, I will just start by saying that started when I was young. I don't remember exactly, like, you know, some people with trauma. I don't really remember very much of the past, but I will, I'm guessing that I started maybe around like 12 with binge eating, and that basically was a huge thread in my life, you know, a real thorn in my side. I'd say that's actually a big understatement. I'd say it completely took up every cell of my being for for most of my life, that that started when I was young, in my 20s, I was a professional athlete, and was a trainer as well. I got my master's in exercise science, so had a big athletic history. Really enjoyed that, despite being really successful in that field, you know, going in multiple times on stage in a bikini and winning overall champion multiple times, but still below the surface, there was the eating disorder that I was really not proud about, you know, and I think, honestly, I probably gravitated towards.. I already.. it's not like bodybuilding caused an eating disorder for me. I think I gravitated towards it because I had been binging out of control and was like, I really like the idea of the discipline, and, and, whatever. So, I ended up doing that, but it certainly didn't make things better. After each show, I would just like binge completely out of control, you know? I just like it would make things a lot worse for a period. Like, they even sort of kind of would go in waves, and sometimes it was worse, and sometimes it was not as bad, but it was always there in the background, kind of like running things. I ended up stopping doing that to start an online business, and later on in 2020 I think things really shifted for me, not only because the pandemic, which was huge for me and for all of us, in being an experience of just complete grief and panic and uncertainty and all that sort of thing, which was not helpful for my nervous system, but in addition to that, my mother passed away. My father had already passed, my grandparents had already passed, so my mother passing, and there was just something that was like, and it was felt like I was in a desert, a barren desert that had no end, and I was so thirsty, that was what the experience felt like, and my eating disorder was out of control, and there was other things too, but basically I just, you know, just didn't want to live. This wasn't fun anymore, and so I ended up checking myself into a residential place, and at the same time there was a will to live, you know, and it was like, gosh, what else can I do? Like, I had done so much. This was not my first rodeo. I had been doing years and years of therapy, tried all the things, prescription medication for eating disorders, ranging from Prozac to Naltrexone to Contrave, and different ones that I tried, and 1000s of dollars of neurofeedback had done it all, and so, and I think that that's and psychedelics too, where it's like, you know, I really felt like I had given it my all, and I think that that's what felt so frustrating at that point, you know, that was like, you know, we've really given it all, and nothing's working, like this isn't fun anymore, but again, there was a will, and then to me, I felt like, you know, learning more about embodiment on both academic and experiential level felt compelling to me experientially, obviously, because you don't want to just read about embodiment, you like, you don't want to read what the research is about, about embodiment, you also want to experience it, so I definitely know was attracted to an immersive experience. Also, I felt intrigued by academics as well, because I'd always been.. I don't know, I felt like school was good for me. I liked the structure. I had always gotten good grades and getting my master's and stuff, and I had always wanted to get my PhD. I honestly wanted to get my PhD right out of college, but I got offered a few fellowships, but I didn't take it because I had felt kind of burnt out by school, so I was like, and I can do it right now, and then I ended up getting my PhD way, way, way later in life, way, way later in life, but yeah, school to me was something that I've always been attracted to, I continue to do continuing education and certifications and stuff, so anyway, I had decided that I wanted to learn more about embodiment, both academically as well as experientially, and that's basically what happened. I have, you know, been on this this lifelong recovery journey, but have felt like things have really, I would say, in the past, like five-ish or so years, things have really shifted a lot from me being in, like, a very challenged and stuck negative place to really shifting to, yeah, feeling more free, a lot more self-compassion, and feeling ready to hold my hand out to other people. Yeah, so I got my PhD, and I wrote my dissertation on body-based strategies for coping with urges to binge eat, and I really felt like I enjoyed the psychology program that really incorporated the body, because it sort of married my background as a professional athlete and with my master's in exercise science with my interest in psychology, which I got my bachelor's in psychology, and I've always really been interested in that sort of thing. So I felt it was like a great marriage, and for me using the body in recovery has been one of the things I've identified as being one of the things that have really shifted things for me. I've just always, I don't know, just kind of identified as a person who's like body-ish, and I do agree, it's a little bit of a, like, an irony, or like a something that doesn't quite make sense, because on the one hand, I have always, you know, I've been a gym rat, I love athletic sort of things, I just melt if I can get a massage, I'm like, I feel like massage therapy really does good things for me in all these different sort of ways, and I've dabbled in so many sports type of things that, like, I'm like, I should be like completely in my body, like, because of all this body, so I should be like totally embodied, but I've also had this sort of interesting experience where I'm like, and also have felt that, you know, I was also very disconnected from my body in a certain sense, so I guess that's a little bit to say, like, even though I feel like I am like a body person, and that is what's helpful, I will acknowledge that it's a little curious that in the past there have been many instances of my complete disconnection with my own body, but despite that, I do feel like I'm like a body person.

Stephanie Mara 10:36

I resonated with so many of those pieces. Yeah, I mean, recovery is such a winding journey, and there's so many layers, and so many years that sometimes we need to take to kind of explore all the many different factors that affect and inform our interactions with food, and just to your point of, I feel like, and I'm curious, if you have felt the same, people who are drawn to somatics have a history of being the most dissociated, disconnected people, like I think there's this idea that, like, people who are somatic practitioners are into the field of somatics, are like, oh, you must be such a body-oriented person, you must, like, really love getting into your body, and I'm like, no, I was drawn to the field of somatics because I lived a lot of my life not in my body and had no idea how to get into my body and yeah, I feel like the field of somatics just kind of opened up. Oh, here's a way to do that.

Dr. Kristina Dobyns 11:36

I agree, I think that in a lot of careers, whatever they are, they had some issue with it, you know, like, oh, you're a talk therapist, like, oh, what did you go through, or like, what's your issue, and they're they're drawn to it because they want to learn more as much as they can, like, not only for their own healing, but potentially they can help others, but yeah, I definitely think that a lot of times people do things because they want to learn more for themselves.

Stephanie Mara 12:00

Yeah, well, you have such a unique lens, just also based off of the research that you did and the journey that you've been on. I'm curious, because in the field of food recovery and binge eating recovery, I find that there are so many things out there that don't work. I even put out a post this past week that was just talking about here are kind of the common binge eating modalities that are suggested when you're trying to heal from this, and why they probably haven't worked for you, because there's just a lot of like misunderstanding, I feel like, which I know that we're both kind of trying to work at raising awareness of what binge eating actually is and what is happening in the body, and it's not really a food issue, and so I'd love to hear a little bit more about what you found didn't work and what you felt like ultimately moved the needle a little bit on what you found, what actually did work to decrease binge eating, either for you or those you've worked with, that even you were maybe surprised at.

Dr. Kristina Dobyns 13:08

Yeah, as far as what didn't work, I'm worried to say things didn't work, because I would say, you know, maybe they worked in a tiny bit, you know, tiny way that I was unconscious or something like that, or I learned at least that it didn't work for me, you know, like for me it gave me a sort of confidence or a self concept to be like I'm doing everything I can, you know, even if things are so hard and I'm still struggling, I've tried everything, or I'm trying everything, you know, so each thing that I did, even if it didn't do anything, it's like I'm moving towards my own recovery, I'm investing in myself and showing myself that I care, and so, for example, hypnotherapy - I paid a lot of money for hypnotherapy. Do I think it really worked? I don't know, you know, but like it was worth it to me to try it, you know, because for me it's there's always, you know, what am I missing? What if this is the thing and I don't try, it's when I try, and like, okay, it's not that. So for me, I don't really notice a difference with hypnotherapy, doing neuro feedback, I spent so much money on that, I don't really feel like that did anything for me. Medications, I really feel like it did much for me, had more negative side effects than any positive side effects, like I feel, what else, I mean, I literally did everything for me, 12 step never worked, you know, 12 step wasn't a thing for me, all the like guidance regarding nutrition, and them insisting that my binge eating issue was that I needed to eat more junk food, you know, not resist it, and whatever. So, I would do, I had multiple meal plans that I would be eating small amounts of junk food throughout the day, and then I would still be binging at night, and I'm like, I really don't feel like this is helpful, but they were like, you know, they're like, this is the way, now we're learning now it's not necessarily the way I'd say a lot of the things I tried I didn't really feel like it was so, so helpful, but at least I can literally say, like, with a completely clear conscious, and just be like. I have tried, tried so, so, so much, and like that's a unique perspective that I have, that being like I've literally tried like everything that I know of, and so on the other end of the spectrum, what has helped sobriety, sobriety, what a surprise, I think that definitely helped, because I had a problem with alcohol and a lot of drugs. I wouldn't say there were so much of a problem. I didn't have to, like, go to an inpatient facility, but, like, there was a lot, a lot of recreational use of all sorts of things. I would say that there were some things that I did have a problem, like alcohol. I had a problem. I would just carry around, like, a water bottle with me and just it fill it with vodka and I wouldn't let anyone know that I was just they thought I was drinking water but it was not water but I just had that that's how I felt comfortable you know like it felt hard for me to feel comfortable about it so stuff like that finally getting sober was really helpful for my recovery because prior to then it was hard to disentangle what was going on, because it's like, you know, how many people..well, I don't know, especially those with the binge eating past, like, for me, I would, let's say, do cocaine, and then the next day on the crash, and then it's like I'm waking up in a pile of all the wrappers of all the things, and it's like, okay, well, you can understand that biochemically, that your stuff's messed up, and like, you're gonna, for me, my go-to was like this is what I know how to do, as I'm gonna, you know, cope with it with binge eating, so that was always my reality, you know, coming down from things, I mean, I think that I'm not sure how many people have that exact experience with that drug, but, like, for example, with alcohol, I think it's a very, very common thing, and this would always happen to me, where it's like I'm getting super drunk, and then I'm eating all the things at like three in the morning, and the next day when I'm hungover, and it's like it's automatically going together, given that it was already a somatic pattern in my body. If I am not sober, I'm for sure going to be binging, because it was a little hard to disentangle, like, okay, well, I was just super drunk and hungover, so it's normal to eat all these things, right? But then once I got sober, it provided me a little bit more stability, and also, what was interesting is, it, you know, the binging didn't go away, but that was information to be like, you know, it's not just me getting wasted or whatever, because even when I'm sober, this pattern still exists, but I can tell you right now, if I was not sober now, I wouldn't have the recovery that I had. So I would say that that's kind of like the good first step, and I think understanding a little bit more about sort of like just a basic science about like urges, how habit loops occur, basic understanding about neuroplasticity and things like that. I think is really helpful for those of us who deal with binge eating patterns, because you might think, oh gosh, I am having this urge, like what's wrong with me or something, but if you know that actually this is just part of the neural loop, and it's totally normal and natural that because it was reinforced in the past, and especially if you're reinforcing with ultra-processed foods, then it's natural you're going to get this huge dopamine bump, and your body's going to, your brain is going to be like, "ooh, this is good, let me suggest this next time, and so then the urge is going to come around again, and just sort of like realizing, you know, an urge is not a command, an urge is totally normal, natural, like the urge is allowed to be there, you know, we don't have to pathologize it or ourselves, you know, these sort of like sort of just like fundamental, like a fundamental scientific understanding about that was really helpful, somatic attunement is something that's been really helpful, and I actually have a story that I can share about this. Are you ready?

Stephanie Mara 18:46

Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Kristina Dobyns 18:47

I will tell you how unattuned I was. So, this is a story of my unattunement. I had mentioned that I had done hypnotherapy, so I hired this hypnotherapist, very like authentic dude, you know, like, he really had a heart in it, right? And he was trying to help me, and you know, we had many sessions together, and he was asking me, like, so what were you feeling like before the binge? It was all different, you know, what were you feeling before the binge, what were you feeling during the binge, and all this stuff, and I was like, I don't like nothing, like I was fine, and I would just insist to him, like, I wasn't feeling anything, everything was fine. It's like all of a sudden like I was binging, but like nothing was wrong, because I was, I remember being really irritated with all these freaking therapists who would be like, well, what's really going on? I'm like, nothing's going on, I'm fine, you know. But anyway, so he was like saying, so you know, how are you feeling? I was like, like, you know, trying to do an autopsy on a previous binge, like, what were you feeling? What were your thoughts? What were your sensations, all this sort of thing? I'm like, I don't know, like nothing. Oh, it's fine. And he was like, you are the most oblivious person that I have ever met. You know, I didn't feel.. I don't remember being offended, like, at this moment. And I'm not, I'm not like it's not conjuring up any sort of thing, like, oh, I so, like, but it was just kind of like felt sort of like a reality check, where he's like, you are so oblivious, and I was like, I don't know, maybe, maybe I am, like, I don't, I really don't know what I was thinking and feeling, like I don't know, and so that really got me curious to connect more to my thoughts, my feelings, sensations, my heart. It wasn't like this. It wasn't like, oh, okay, now. And I really was like, I'm going on a journey, but like, in the end, you know, it's been a slow, slow thing. Like, gosh, I don't know, this was at least 15 years ago or something like that, but like, it wasn't like that immediately helped me to connect to my body easily, but I was so disconnected, and like I really have been on this journey for a long time to try to reconnect and understand what I'm feeling and stuff like that, but I do feel like the somatic attunement has, you know, I have improved it over time, and it's still a journey for me, but I do feel like, you know, making a concerted effort, it gets better and better over time, so...

Stephanie Mara 21:02

I appreciate you actually sharing that example, because I think it really normalizes a lot of people's experiences when they start to maybe go to a practitioner or do somatic work, and they start to be like, "Well, what did you feel like? Well, that's kind of why I'm here, because I have no idea what I feel ever, what do you mean what did I feel like? I don't even know what to describe to you right now. I don't even have the language for that, or even the awareness that I was feeling anything. So I actually really appreciate you normalizing that, especially when you are starting to do maybe more of an embodied somatic sensory approach to binge eating recovery, because at the beginning there may be a huge disconnect. We've talked about this before, but like this concept of interoception, of knowing the felt sense of our body, a lot of research shows that for those who struggle with food interoception can be very low, and so you have no idea what's happening, how you feel, and that the binge urge just comes out of nowhere, and you're like, I was having a fine day, and then suddenly I was binging, and I have no idea what happened.

Dr. Kristina Dobyns 22:13

Yeah, exactly. So I think that one of the things that I have been working on in my own recovery is, you know, trying to identify the earlier whispers of these feelings, you know, because for me it was kind of like I had to be hit over the head with it for me to become aware of it, you know, like I wasn't aware of the urge until it took over my body, and it was like irresistible, and that's how it felt, right, when it's like a 10 out of 10, or you know, close to that, right, but I never was able to, I hadn't been so attuned that I could, I could catch it at it earlier, like a three out of 10, or something, where is more manageable, right? But that's something that I definitely encourage people who, you know, any clients or people who take my classes or workshops to really work on trying to improve their own interoceptive awareness and improve their somatic awareness of urges, because it can be experienced as an experience of sensations in your body, or it could be, you know, a more of a cognitive experience, or whatever type of experience it is for you, sort of getting in tune with that, so that you can sort of intervene in that moment to give yourself what you need, but there's not a way to do that if you don't know what it feels like in your body, or for you, so yeah, the somatic attunement has been really helpful, not only with eating disorder recovery, but just being a human in the world, right? Like, for us to kind of know what we're feeling in general, I think it's for me it's a constant thing to be able to be like, hey, what do I need, and like what can I do to respond appropriately and compassionately.

Stephanie Mara 23:40

Yeah, it's such a process, and it does ultimately lead to enhanced decision making, because if we know how we feel, we know what to respond to, we know how to satiate and satisfy our needs, but if we have no idea how we feel, or even when we try something and notice our response to that, something, then we don't even know if what we're doing resonates with ourselves or not. I am really curious, what you mentioned was like, oh, as I started becoming more somatically attuned and catching a binge urge. I love that you put it on a scale of, like, rather than it being, oh, I'm catching it at a 10, I caught it at a three. I'm curious, if you could say more what that process was like for you? Like, how did you do that? If you can remember it all, what helped you?

Dr. Kristina Dobyns 24:30

It's hard to break it down, like, for me, it's a hard to break down sampling, but I would say part of it was I would sometimes set timers on my phone throughout the day to check in, let's say once an hour, and to just check in with myself and be like, what am I feeling right? So I basically tried to identify what I was feeling at other times in the day, not in the moment of the urge, because I knew the urge for me felt like the critical moment, but then I was like, okay, but it's so hard to do that when I'm at this super high, you know, urge intensity level and dysregulated, dissociated type of level. So, what if I practice this check-in during other parts of my day, right? And so I would set a timer, and that when the alarm would go off, I would be like, what am I noticing, and I tried to do that at different sort of layers of existence, kind of like, so for example, what am I thinking, what am I feeling, and not only emotional feeling, but like what am I feeling in a tactile sense. So, like, what are what is sort of the surface layer touching, like what part of my sleeves are touching my arms, and what else am I noticing in different sort of like proprioceptively? Like, is there anything proprioceptive, and what about the vestibulous? I don't know. I just tried to be like, am I hungry at all? Do I have to go to the bathroom? Like, am I irritated in some way? What are my eyes seeing? What about my ears? I literally tried to just kind of take an inventory of like all the different ways that I could check in, and I didn't do this every single time, but like these were the type of practices that I would do, that'd be like on a sensory level engaging these sort of external senses. What about the internal senses? What about, you know, maybe what are the thoughts I'm thinking, or maybe I don't need to pay attention to thoughts, but what's the quality? Like, does it feel like there's like a - is it a beehive, or is it some circus animals doing their practicing their routine in my, in my head? Or is it kind of like a slow, lazy river? Like, what's kind of going on that way? And so, doing check-ins was helpful, and then you know, trying to catch it at earlier time. So, if I did catch an urge in an earlier time, I tried to sort of dismantle it in a physical somatic sense by giving it language, you know. I tried to be like, okay, how would I actually physically describe these sensations, because I know that there's value in just like feeling it, and just like letting it wash over you, and like not needing to put words on it, but for me, I found it also helpful to be like, what are the actual words that you are describing, because to me the binge urges felt like this, like it's like a black sort of depth, it's like an unknowable, unnamable, like monster in the closet, or monster under the bed, or something like that. It's kind of like, I don't know what it is. It feels all very mysterious. Then I tried to make it a little bit more concrete, and feel like, hey, can we flip on the lights a little bit? Like, there's actual words that you may describe it, instead of being like, is this thing, this.. I don't know what this thing is, but like, okay, is it an itchy palm? Because I, you know, like, I think maybe you also described, which I had the similar experience, you want to crawl out of your skin, it's like nails on a chalkboard. It's like these sort of things are like, it's, I don't know, whatever type of feeling, but like, can you actually put words to it? Like, maybe it's a, it's a heavy rectangle on your chest or something to try to explore what does it actually, is it all the way out here in your awareness, or it does the urge live right here? Is it moving system, like just kind of like give like more words to it, and it wouldn't be every time, obviously. Like, I'll do the best I can to try to check in, and when I did notice the urge to try to really tap into what I was actually feeling, and then it also became a little bit of an iterative process out of some of the things that have been helpful. One of the things that I will mention shortly is sensory strategies, which are or sensory modulating strategies. These are things that we can do to shift our nervous system using either sensory input or the blocking of certain sensory input, and I felt that there was an iterative process that would occur where I would be aware, mindful of that urge, and then I would be like, oh my gosh, like it's.. I feel this.. this sense it's rising in me, you know? If I caught it, I was like, oh, I'm feeling it, oh my gosh, and so then I would do a sensory strategy to help me to be like, I can be with this, and then I could go back to that building of the awareness and the somatic attunement, so it was an iterative process of like developing some more attunement, but then also having somatic and regulational strategies that allow me to be present with that, so then I could still stay present.

Stephanie Mara 28:54

Yeah, I really hear what you're saying. First, I love what you're bringing in, of bringing sometimes language to what you're feeling. I believe it's Dr. Daniel Siegel that talks about when you bring a language to emotions, it actually shifts you from your amygdala to your prefrontal cortex. So I really hear what you're saying, that yeah, sometimes it can be helpful just to be like, hey, I'm going to get out of my cognition, really try to just like feel what I'm feeling and move through that. Really appreciate your description of it's like a monster in a dark closet, that it's like this thing that you don't want to touch, and there could be a lot of fear that I feel like I've talked to people about, of like, but if I even talk about it or poke at it, that means it's going to increase, or that means I'm going to be interacting with it, and I don't, I don't even want to have a relationship with my binge urge, like I don't even want to touch that, but what you're naming is then it just stays as this scary monster in the closet that you kind of need to turn the light on a little bit, so you can actually be like, is this a monster, like, is this something I actually have to be scared of?

Dr. Kristina Dobyns 30:01

There's not even a monster there.

Stephanie Mara 30:03

Yeah, so I loved that piece, and I'd love you for you to name a little bit more, because I know that's what you did your research on, of why the sensory input was such a crucial piece in your recovery, and what you saw, even in your research, of why it made such a huge difference, and I know that there can be a confusion of, like, well, is sensory work somatic work? So I'm also wondering, like, how you see them as two different things.

Dr. Kristina Dobyns 30:30

Yeah, so I tend to use the word.. well, I don't always.. it just depends on the context, but when I'm talking about the strategies that I'm mentioning, I use the word sensory because that is the term that is used in the field of occupational therapy, which is where these strategies were originally created, essentially. So, sensory strategies - well, I call them sensory strategies. Historically, I would say they're called sensory modulation - that's that's what it's been called. But then I'll call it sensory strategies, or sensory modulating strategies, because essentially it can help you to modulate your nervous system, but historically these were strategies that occupational therapists use with children, pediatric population for things such as sensory processing disorder, autism type of things, and they would basically create what we call the sensory diet, they do an assessment with the child to sort of assess their sensory preferences, and then create a special list for them that would help them to self-regulate. So, for example, it could be the child is laying on the floor, and the occupational therapist might put a stability ball, you know, like a yoga ball, like a big squishy ball, and sort of like compress them in that way with deep pressure touch, or could be actually a prescription. Hey, you need to do 50 jumping jacks or something, and that's part of their routine that they would need to do in order for them to not be acting out, for them to feel, feel regulated. And it was kind of like magic, you know, but they have really identified how, how our senses can impact our sense of engagement with the world, and when I found out about these strategies, I was like, oh my gosh, this sounds like something I'm super interested in, because I don't know, somatic didn't necessarily feel like the right word for me for those type of things, because to me the word somatic invokes something that is kind of profound and deep, and I would say in some ways to a detriment, like for example, in this example of the sensory strategies in these children who are using the sensory diet prescribed by their occupational therapists, is it somatic? It's certainly physical, but if we talk about in the word somatic, as it's often used in somatic psychology, there's maybe not any trauma there, you know, it's maybe not anything beyond what it is. It really is kind of like a surface level regulation, because of, you know, some sort of, you know, sensory thing going on, and if you provide that, that sort of input, it's better, you know. So it's not taking it to another level, and that's what I really appreciated about that sort of paradigm. And as I was thinking about it in my own experience, for my own eating issues, is after all the, like, I said, I did so much therapy, I did so many things, right, and I was like, I'm feeling pretty good, obviously, I have trauma, I've, I feel like I've really worked through a lot of it, you know, I feel like life's pretty decent, like I'm feeling pretty good, right, but I still am like binging, and in my experience, you know, it was kind of like just the sitting with it type of thing didn't really, it wasn't working, you know, I had so much faith in it, I was like, oh, you know, if I could just recognize I don't need to act on the urge and break that habit loop, like that's all that I need, but it never would happen like that. It wouldn't be like I felt the urge, and then I'm like off to the races, and I'm like, damn it, you know. So I know I need to sit with it, but like I can't. And then it was by experimenting with these sensory strategies for myself that it felt kind of like big guns, you know? I was like, oh, I'm not just like sitting here like defenseless, like I had these tools that helped me to not dissociate, to be like I am here, I'm in my body, here is the layer where what's inside my arm is is meeting my outside of my arm is meeting my other hand, and like feeling the, you know, where my body is meeting the parts around, just like there's all these things, I was like I am, I'm a human in a human body, as opposed to my experience was like, oh, I'm, I'm creeping away, I'm about to, I'm about to do something, but like I didn't feel like I had tools to really help me get through that, that wave of intensity, and for me, sensory strategies felt like it actually was helpful, not like in a cognitive level, but like literally doing something, and so I would do things like body tapping, for me was really helpful, like standing up and just doing sort of like qigong inspired body tapping, or closed fist or open palm, for me shaking and that sort of thing, bouncing, and just kind of getting that energy out, and like being like I'm back in my body, and I'm feeling a little more alert, instead of like the sort of shutting down, sort of dissociated, like sort of windy, ethereal place. I'm like getting back in my body, and so, yeah, body tapping, shaking, squeezing my own body, using like a self-massager, or like body tapper, or like things like that, or a piece of fabric, and running, rubbing it on my body. Those were the type of things that I felt really helped me, so I feel obviously I'm like really into the proprioceptive sense, because a lot of those are like tactile and proprioceptive, but to me those were a lot more helpful than the more subtle sort of strategies that I think they're often, well, the subtle and logically based strategies that are offered for binge urges, so for example, just sit with it, be aware how the intensity rises and falls on its own. Just remember this is not what you want, you know. Think of your goals, play the tape forward. These sort of like things that people tend to say, they're valid and good, but for me it just wasn't enough. And sensory strategies really helped me, and so that inspired me to do my dissertation on them, where I worked with people who identified as having a binge eating disorder, and it was more of a feasibility study, and so then they, they tried it for themselves. At the moment of noticing an urge to binge, they were instructed to fill out a questionnaire that's called Ecological Momentary Assessment. They were instructed to kind of rate their urge intensity and then engage in in a sensory strategy, and then re-rate their urge, and then also report if they binged. And so that was the data that I looked at, as well as pre- and post-tests that were administered from before they engaged in the setting all the way at the end, so we had these multiple data points of like the global pre and post, and then all these data points of during the study where they were doing the ecological momentary assessment, and overall it seems like it was, it was really helpful. There was a decrease in the binge eating, there was an improvement in interoceptive awareness, per the MAIA-2, there were all sorts of good things increases in emotional regulation, which and then a lot of people. There's also a portion that elicited a qualitative feedback, and a lot of people were saying, "Hey, man, these things felt powerful. This felt more powerful than therapy, you know? They gave me tools to help me to stay grounded in the moment, and then they could be adapted, because you know, you could either do a large movement if you want, or if you're in the office, you could do some sort of small movement, such as, you know, hand squeezing, that is pretty subtle, so it's very adaptable. Your body's free, it's portable, you don't have pharmacological side effects from these sort of things, and of course, there's other sort of tools that you could use that would require equipment, you know, like a weighted blanket or a cold shower. Obviously, you can't do that in an office, but your body alone has inherently within it a lot of ways that you can connect with your body to self-regulate.

Stephanie Mara 37:51

Well, I noticed myself actually tear up a little bit hearing about your experience. I know we already know how many overlaps that we have, but I don't think I heard as much detail as you just shared about how you move through it and what you needed, and I don't feel like I have heard a lot of people share a very such a similar experience that I had of like trying so many things, and it's why I like am so passionate about talking about how cognitive approaches won't work, or even intuitive eating won't necessarily be the first modality that's going to be effective. Ror me at the time, I just needed to get into my body and move. It was the only thing that stopped me from actually binge eating. It didn't stop the binge urge, but it did actually support me in being in my body long enough to feel like I could regulate and have a choice, in that I could binge, but I also had a choice not to. But there was nothing that I could say to myself, no amount of cognitive understanding that I could offer myself. Like, I agree with you, it can be really beneficial to understand what is happening in your body, so you decrease any sense of shame and judgment that, like, you're doing it. It's like, no, your body's doing this for you for a reason. But I really just appreciate you sharing that it was like, yeah, you had to actually feel your body, like my body exists, because in that moment when you're feeling like you're moving towards binge eating, it's like you kind of cease to exist in that moment. You are just an animal in survival response, and you're gonna do whatever you can do to survive, but I mean the me I know myself to be stopped being, and so to have to like get back into our body sometimes, that does take some sensory input, like you're talking about, to be like, wait a second, I still exist here, I'm still alive, I haven't gone anywhere.

Dr. Kristina Dobyns 39:52

Right. It might sound crazy for someone who hasn't had this experience, but for those of us who understand what we're talking about, it's so real, and that's exactly what it is. It's like you don't feel like you are in your body anymore, and it's really helpful to get back in your body, and you know, for people who haven't experienced it, then that's great. But yeah, for those of us who know what it's like, this is so real.

Stephanie Mara 40:14

Yeah, so you found basically in your research that once people started practicing this sensory practices that ultimately what they discovered was a decrease in binge eating or binge urges, or both.

Dr. Kristina Dobyns 40:31

You know, this was like a year ago, so like I honestly feel far away, even though it was only a year ago. They certainly experienced a big drop in binge eating. I honestly don't remember if they experienced a drop in binge urges. They might have. I think I remember basically all positive markers, like everything that was good should have anything that would have indicated like a favorable result of an increase, that increase. And then there were certain things that would have been favorable if there was a decrease, so for example, that we had one measure that was like, like lack of emotional regulation or something, and so like that was sort of an inverse scoring, or whatever, but all the things that were, and like for example, the number of binges, we want that to go down, everything moved in the right direction, I think there was something, I think it was the binge urge, yeah, that was the only one that had a little bit of complication regarding calculating that and the complexity of the results, because we had to stratify the participants if they had initially rated that binge urge to be on the lower end, then engaging with the sensory strategy did lower that intensity, like from pre to post, in that moment that decrease was statistically significant, and if they had initially rated their urge to binge intensity to be quite high, we even had a few people, it was like a scale from one to 100 and some people even had, like, 100 so if you catch your urge at 100 out of 100 that's pretty tough, right? So the people who rated their urge to binge to be on the higher intensity, their decrease in their urge intensity was not statistically significant. So everything that I measured, which were various data points regarding the number of binge episodes, different aspects of interoceptive awareness, emotional regulation, can't remember what else, but everything was statistically significant except for the actual intensity of the binge urge, which, like I said, it's only statistically significant if the rating was, you know, on the lower end. Let's say it was, you know, 40 and below, or 30 and below, or something like that.

Stephanie Mara 42:47

Yeah, I mean, what you're pointing out is also that, like, this is complicated and nuanced of our interoceptive awareness when we catch the binge urge. How intense is the binge urge, and that there are different practices that are gonna meet us at each intensity, and sometimes it means that what I'm hearing is like, if your intensity is at 100 and you're just gonna binge, like, how can we also move through the binge? Like, I hear this, maybe wasn't part of your research, but where I get curious of, like, okay, how can we own the binge rather than kind of shame ourselves through it, where it's just like, okay, my binge urge, if I got to the capacity that I could rate that my binge urges at 100 how can I now be like, I'm going to binge, I'm going to own that, I'm going to binge, and I'm going to make this the best binge eating experience that I can possibly make it, that maybe it might actually re-embody me instead of disembody me.

Dr. Kristina Dobyns 43:48

Right? No, totally. I totally get where you're going at, and I do agree that those results do point at the importance of interoceptive awareness and the importance of early intervention. You know, so if we can like become more aware of what these urges to binge feel like in our body, if we can become more aware of, you know, how we're just feeling on an everyday basis, from the glimmers to the triggers and everything in between. Then we're more equipped to be able to intervene early, because sensory strategies are not miracles, they're things that can help, but obviously, if you're 10 out of 10, or 100 out of 100 that's hard to pull back from, and I like what you're saying about what if we can be present in the experience still, like what impact will that have on the greater macro cycle of binge eating, if we can somehow, somewhere return to experience an awareness earlier in the cycle, instead of being completely disconnected for I don't know how long, 30 minutes, an hour, five hours, or whatever, until we start to, or a day, or whatever, before we're like, okay, I'm back in my body, right? If we can decrease that amount of time and become more aware in that moment, maybe things will shift. And then what happens if we are self-compassionate? And I honestly had all these.. I had similar questions, where I was like, oh, what? What if, like, in this ecological momentary assessment, what if it could have, you know, multiple branches? And so, after they did binge, I was hoping to have the message pop up in the app, because all done on an app, right? So I was like, oh, what if we had a message like, can you approach yourself with self-compassion in this moment? What can you do to show yourself kindness in this moment, or whatever, you know, something like that, and I was like, ooh, that could be really helpful, and I also was thinking about incorporating the self-compassion scale, but then in the end, you know how it is. Well, soon you're going to be going through your process, but I'm sure you've heard a lot of times they're like, you need to cut, cut, you need to keep it tight, unless you want to do your dissertation to stay in your, your stay in school for like a million years, and so I ended up, you know, just focusing on what I did, but I definitely think that there's really something to whatever we can do to try to turn towards ourselves instead of propagating the disconnection. So now I'm going to binge, because I don't want to think about how I binged, and then it just adds on. Now I'm feeling ashamed that, gosh, I binged three times just right now, and I literally just said this morning I wouldn't be binging, and so on and so forth, and the faster that we can, you know, bring ourselves to that, that awareness, that kindness, and bring ourselves to a more of a curious place instead of a judgmental place, it's definitely going to kind of help us, but that it's a process.

Stephanie Mara 43:48

Yeah, you know, just talking about that cycle piece, I want to come back around to something you said even earlier around the nutritional aspect, because I experienced something too, where I also went through the process of kind of doing that, like all foods fit, and like I just need to eat whatever I want to eat whenever I want to eat it, and that's going to be the thing that stabilizes me and habituates me to food and just made things exponentially worse for me, and so I'm pretty passionate about kind of challenging that, because I've seen it not really work for a lot of people. Again, if it worked for you, and you're listening to this, fantastic, there's so many different strategies out there, that's great, but I'm wondering if you can say more about how nutrition kind of played a role for you in recovery, and what did that look like for you? If it wasn't kind of the mainstream examples and advice and guidance that we usually get.

Dr. Kristina Dobyns 44:36

Yeah, this is actually something that I'm pretty passionate about, and I think I'm similar to you, like I'm not trying to be prescriptive, and if whatever someone who might be listening, or one day maybe watching this, whatever they're doing, and it's working for them, I'm so, I'm so supportive of them to do what works for them. I would say that my experience has been different, which is why, after much struggle, you know, which is why I'm passionate about presenting a different voice. For me, carnivore has been like sort of ketogenic carnivore has been really helpful for me, and mind you, I've tried all the different things, including multiple times of incorporating a lot of junk food in an intentional way, and being like releasing judgment and whatever, and I would still end up binging. Part of those experiences, I remember one of my friends, I had mentioned something like, you know, I feel kind of inspired, like I just want to just want to eat out of my Tupperware. I want to eat healthy food out of my Tupperware, and stuff. And she's like, "Is that your eating disorder, talking?" And I was like, I felt kind of invalidated, and kind of, you know, sort of put down. But there was a part of me that was like, "I don't know anymore, you know? Like, I didn't feel like it was.. it didn't.. I didn't feel like it came from an unhealthy place. But the fact that so many people, like therapists and RD's and stuff, in the past had been telling me, like, you're not doing it right, and because I was still struggling, and I was like, maybe they are right, maybe I'm, maybe I'm wrong, I shouldn't be doing this way, I don't know, but especially because of my bodybuilding past, people would always comment on my food, you're so high maintenance, and ew, and what are you eating, and you know, there's just a lot of attention on my food, which I just.. I hated it. I was like, you mind your own freaking plate, right?

Stephanie Mara 46:43

Keep your eyes on your plate, I'll keep my eyes on my plate.

Dr. Kristina Dobyns 45:45

Don't worry about me, just focus on yourself. But it was so irritating to me, and so, given especially my bodybuilding past, eating disorder past, I felt really hesitant to do something that people might think is extreme, so I'm like, I'm fine with everything, give me that dessert, give me the whatever, and the whatever, right? Even though I didn't love it, but I'm like, tried to just like people please, and just be like, go, everything is fine. And then I got diagnosed with an autoimmune disease, and I had already heard about the carnivore diet for, you know, food addiction struggles and people with eating struggles, but like I said, I felt fear of people judging me, or that it was, you know, it was too weird or something. And then when I got diagnosed with autoimmune disease, and I had heard that it was helpful for autoimmune disease, I was like, you know what, screw what anyone might think, I'm just gonna try this and see if this helps me, and I did, and that was like five years ago, and you know it's been, it's been great. So I just never really looked back. So for me that's been helpful, you know. And so I have a YouTube channel, Beyond Binge Eating Podcast, and one of the things that I kind of talk about is this intersection of embodiment and nervous system regulation and animal-based type of ketogenic nutrition, because I think that's kind of the new thing, you know, like a lot of times people who are looking to progress in their recovery, and all that they see on YouTube is is people who were like, hey, you know, intuitive eating is it's really the way to go, moderation in all things, and again, I respect people for whom that is their path, but that wasn't my path. And for me, what has been really has been more supportive is just kind of, yeah, doing this thing that's really different, like a more ketogenic carnivore animal-based diet, and that has been really helpful for me. And I have, since a long time ago, I worked with a food addiction coach who helped me kind of like reframe everything, and instead of pathologizing me and being like, okay, you're totally messed up, and this is totally disordered, she was kind of helped me understand, actually some brains do better this way, it can be really helpful for some people, and since then I've met many other women and have interviewed several women on my podcast who have felt that their eating disorder recovery has been supported by a carnivore diet as well, and I've really grown to become, you know, secure and courageous in what I do nutritionally and to support my recovery, and that's one of the things that I like to imbue in my messaging, is like, you know, sometimes you're going to do things that are different than what other people do to support your recovery, but what's normal, anyway? Normal is oftentimes sick, and you know you're going out late, and you're drinking, and you feel like crap, and you know, have all these health issues. And where I'm at right now is I'm totally sober. I try to stay away from, you know, a lot of certain foods. I go to bed early. I'm kind of like in that geriatric life, you know, but it's like, for me, this is what provides me with stability, and so I just try to work with, hey, I am doing things differently, and maybe a lot of people my age are out partying, and that sounds really fun, and part of me is like, oh, I wish I could stay out late and go dancing and all that stuff, but I also know that what generally keeps me regulated is is more of like stable type of routine, and so to go back to your question about the nutrition for me, animal-based has been really helpful, even really trying to achieve nutritional ketosis and rebuilding the confidence in myself.

Stephanie Mara 52:16

Thank you for sharing all of that. We are really on the same page in a lot of things that you said that first I agree with you around intuitive eating has become the gold standard of what is often recommended for food recovery, but it just doesn't work for everyone. I know it did not work for me, also coming from my own body's wisdom or body blueprint of the fact that, like, yes, I no longer have digestive issues that I had in my early 20s, but I think I will always have a sensitive digestive tract. It kind of has been passed down from generation to generation in the women in my family. I think it's just something that is genetically what I have and what I was born with, and it's part of my lineage, and so there is a very specific way that I eat that supports my body, and I love what you're pointing to, is that we have to kind of challenge what does food recovery actually mean, and what I find is that usually when someone is struggling with their food behaviors or relationship or interactions with food, it's interrupting the quality of their life, and if you are finding a way of eating that actually enhances the quality of your life, that gives you greater connection, that gives you greater understanding of yourself that actually makes you feel more comfortable to go out and eat with other people, because you know what to even order, because you know what resonates with your body, that is what food recovery is, and that's going to look unique to each person's body based off of your physiology and what foods really resonate with you, and so I love that you shared all of that, because I think it is a really important voice in this food recovery field to continue to challenge this idea that food recovery looks like eating in a specific way, or that you can then feel comfortable eating all foods, and I always like to make an analogy around, like, if there was a person in my life that was constantly disrespecting me, that person probably wouldn't stay in my life very long if they couldn't, like, meet me, respect my boundaries, all the things. It could be the same thing with food, that when we realize there is a food that doesn't feel respectful to our body, because it dysregulates us. It makes us move into a sympathetic nervous system state. We feel drained, exhausted, tired, anxious, depressed after we eat those foods. Is that actually food recovery? If we're like the thing I've been seeing is trying to like prove your recovery through what you're eating rather than you get to know you're recovered because of you feel like your life has opened up and food gets to be a part of that now so I appreciate you just bringing that here because it is an important dialogue I feel like to continue to bring forth that the field kind of needs to be updated a little bit.

Dr. Kristina Dobyns 55:25

Thank you so much. Thanks.

Stephanie Mara 55:26

Yeah, well, I'm curious, where's your work heading now? How can people learn more about your work? And usually I like to wrap up at the end of our episodes with like a little baby step that people can play with, so if you have a little baby step that if someone's listening to this and they're like, wow, this sensory practices sound really interesting, or your process sounds fascinating, what's maybe a baby step you would offer someone as they maybe start to explore some of the things you talked about today.

Dr. Kristina Dobyns 56:00

I'm also in the process of revamping my website. I know you mentioned you were revamping your website, so currently my website is beyondbingeating.com. However, because I am kind of like into different things, I'm creating a central hub that's called drkristinadobyns.com it's D R K R I S T I N A D O B Y N S.com and that's going to have a link to Beyond Binge Eating, and to other places, but for now people can check out BeyondBingeEating.com and I'll probably link back to the drkristinadobyns.com once it's up, so then from there they can, they can check it out, or they can probably Google it. Yeah, so I have been really interested lately, both in person, like sort of a shift in my work to in person, and as well as writing, so I've never hosted a retreat before, so that would be new. And then writing is something that I have been doing, but I haven't really opened up a lot of space in my life for that. So those are two things that are really interesting me right now. The first retreat is planned for next year, and it's still a little bit in the process. I'm refining some details, but essentially it will be a carnivore retreat, like a yoga and wellness retreat, but that offers carnivore food, because I've been to many retreats and I love them, but the food to me doesn't feel super supportive, and you know, if you want to eat a, like, low carbohydrate diet or ketogenic diet, primal, any of those type of things, it's really not for you, and so this would allow the opportunity for people who do eat in that way to access the experience and get to experience an amazing, healing, transformative experience, right? So that is next year in Costa Rica, so if anyone is really interested, then they should contact me, info@beyondbingeating.com I will be getting a web, you know, website up for that, but yeah, my web person is kind of slow. If you're interested in a retreat, then I would love to hear from you, info@beyondbingeating.com And then also I am working on a book, and that is sort of in the same sort of vein as sort of looking at the carnivore diet and ketogenic diet, but from the lens of binge eating and food addiction type of recovery, because I think that there's some some nuance and some special topics that kind of apply to that situation, so for example, if you look on, like, look at YouTube and see some of the popular carnivore influencers, there's like certain people who like totally live off of cheese, and like that sounds like a good life, but for people who might have compulsive and addictive patterns with food, cheese can be something that is like get some kept in, kept locked in, right? That's not a good idea for them, and so for example, you making a quote unquote abstinent approach and removing what would be triggers for them, that is something that they may need to consider, if someone has the history of, you know, compulsive patterns with food, and they want to do carnivore, you know, taking in consideration certain things. So, basically, I want to expound on recovery, but kind of taking in a holistic approach in nervous system regulation, and how carnivore, how all these things combined, that's what I'm working on right now.

Stephanie Mara 59:05

Oh, I'm just so excited for what you're creating, because I feel like the more that people in this somatic world actually embody binge eating recovery or food recovery, whatever it is, and I'm seeing more and more, so many practitioners do that and share their process, it's gonna just shift the.. I don't even like to use the term eating disorder anymore, because, like, it was the most like ordered wisest thing that we can do, but it will shift that field so much, and I feel like there is a lot of updating that needs to occur. I mean, I worked at an outpatient eating disorder clinic many, many, many years ago, and we would constantly see people go to inpatient and then back to outpatient, and then inpatient, and then outpatient again, and it's like we're missing something here. And so I'm just excited for what you're adding into the field. And what you've discovered can be supportive, and like owning that, and like offering retreats and books and things, so I'm super excited for you on that, but you were gonna say maybe a baby step that people who want to get into this work might play with.

Dr. Kristina Dobyns 1:00:14

Yeah. Well, I just want to say, thank you so much, Stephanie. I think that we need to contribute our unique voices and perspectives based upon our own experience, because we know what the standard is out there, we know what the general sort of prescription is, is this is what you do to recover, but if that hasn't worked for us, then if there's someone ahead of us who has a different way that has worked for them, then you can hold your hand out for them, so all of our voices are valuable, because none of us are the same. We all have a little different skew on things we have. So, I think that for us to share what has worked for us is really important. As far as a small step, I think I want to offer something I think is pretty accessible, and that would be one minute of mindful eating, let's say just one time, you know, like one small step, so not to say you need to do one one minute of mindful eating for three meals a day for every day, you know, but just try it one time is like a really nice mindfulness environment, somatic practice, depending on how you do it, but especially those who are really working to overcome binge eating patterns, a lot of times they're not being in presence with their food, a lot of times they're scrolling on the phone, they're watching TV, like there's a podcast going on, and there's a lot of stuff going on, right? But what if we were to turn off the podcast, turn off the TV, put the phone away, and just sit with your food for a minute, and I don't just literally sit there, but you know you can get started with your food and just look at your food and sort of engage with it in different sensory ways, like notice what does it look like, is there any smell, if you take a bite, is there like a sound that it makes, is it like does it make a crunchy sound, or is it just kind of like just becomes a mush, do you notice how you feel when you took a bite, is there any excitement, or is there like kind of like a resistance, like, oh, this is a weird exercise, but just noticing these things for just one minute is pretty accessible. If it feels like this is hard, you don't have to suffer through it for the whole meal, but just one minute once, I think, is a valuable exercise. The more of us who have issues with binge eating that we can help to prevent the disassociation to preventing the spiral, which is very much associated with scrolling in our day and age. So the more we can practice being, you know, mindful with our food and being present and not trying to cover up the experience through scrolling or media, I think, is very, very, very valuable. So, that would be my small practice to try.

Stephanie Mara 1:02:48

I love that, and I love that you even chunked it down to just do it for one minute. You don't even have to do it for the whole meal. I find that is such an important nuance to the suggestion of just being with our food and sensorily taking it in is that sometimes there can be kind of a nervous system reaction to like you want me to spend an entire meal with the thing that feels like the most threatening thing for me to connect with, but it's like no, I don't want you to connect with them for like 20 minutes, do it for one minute at the beginning of a meal, and then if you need to like take out your phone or zone out or put on a podcast, you can totally do that, but just incrementally finding those tiny moments of like one minute at the beginning of your meal to practice this is such a great little baby step for people to play with.

Dr. Kristina Dobyns 1:03:40

Thank you so much, Stephanie. And thank you so much for having me. It's been wonderful chatting with you.

Stephanie Mara 1:03:45

Yeah, well, thank you so much for being here and sharing all of your wisdom. I will put all of the links to everything that you listed in the show notes, and to everyone who is listening, if you have any questions or aha moments or insights, email me at support@stephaniemara.com and I hope you all have a satiating and safety producing rest of the day. Bye!

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